Sibermike working as dm I would expect at my op anyway to do around 10 boat trips per week with 3-6 divers double tanking per trip. Usually 4-6 hours work per trip. As for air I don't think that can be counted though our op will use around 110 tanks a day 1/4 to 1/3 by staff
Scuba Etiquette: Tipping?
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BettyRubble
Contributor
This thread is very enlightening as I had no idea crews are not paid. I don't think crews should go unpaid. Crews make or break a trip.
Also, I am not begruding a business a profit. If the business model for operators is that their crew is paid by tips, then as long as both the customer and the crew know that, then the crew gets tipped according to their service level. For the record, I've never slinked away from a tip. Heck, I say thank you so often people ask me to stop. But I don't plan to tip >20% as a standard.
But technically, if 'tipping' is expected (and especially at a >20% range) then guess what -- the trip cost does include the cost to pay the crew. It's expected, hand is put out by the Captain or DM, and it is paid. The operation didn't offer the option to show gratitude. It expected the client to pay for service rendered. I'm fine with that. Just call it a crew fee or whatever fancy name you like. But it is not a tip. Sounds like dive operators are trying to 'advertise' a lower trip cost so they treat the crew fee 'as tip'.
Good thread. My crews at ITK will be glad I read it!!!
Also, I am not begruding a business a profit. If the business model for operators is that their crew is paid by tips, then as long as both the customer and the crew know that, then the crew gets tipped according to their service level. For the record, I've never slinked away from a tip. Heck, I say thank you so often people ask me to stop. But I don't plan to tip >20% as a standard.
But technically, if 'tipping' is expected (and especially at a >20% range) then guess what -- the trip cost does include the cost to pay the crew. It's expected, hand is put out by the Captain or DM, and it is paid. The operation didn't offer the option to show gratitude. It expected the client to pay for service rendered. I'm fine with that. Just call it a crew fee or whatever fancy name you like. But it is not a tip. Sounds like dive operators are trying to 'advertise' a lower trip cost so they treat the crew fee 'as tip'.
Good thread. My crews at ITK will be glad I read it!!!
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BDSC
Contributor
Question RJP?
I was just curious as to what you guys charge a diver for a typical two tank trip out to where ever it is you go? Here in NC it seems about $125 is the going rate at many places along the coast.
I was just curious as to what you guys charge a diver for a typical two tank trip out to where ever it is you go? Here in NC it seems about $125 is the going rate at many places along the coast.
Super! Can you throw out some real numbers for us so that we can see if tipping the DM is cheaper than have the increase in cost as part of the charter? Can we agree that the charter or Dive Operator (DO) will want to make at least as much profit as they are currently making? Hence, the entire cost of paying the DMs will have to reflected in the additional costs of the charters.
Let me know if these parameters are 1/2 way realistic.
1.) Figure minimum of 4 divers (if more, then operator just has a higher profit margin).
2.) 2 trips a week (I know some months have 5 Sat/Sun but not every week will the boat go out either. 104 trips would be full so to be more realistic, let's say 100 trips a year. Does that sound about right?
3.) Hey, they are now professionals but for the sake of argument, let's scrape by with paying them minimum wage. Of course, the DO will have to also figure cost for SS, any taxes, mandatory benefits for PT help, etc. and pass that on also.
4.) Does the DO now get stuck with providing air for the "employees" since they require it to do the job and how much does this cost the DO?
5.) Figure 8 hour day, no OT.
This should get us a pretty good estimate at the cheapest cost per diver-per dive we could get away with. If you would please do the math "I Dive", and let us know, it will show us whether tipping benefits the divers or not.
Thanks.
Oh, and let's figure 2 DMs per charter, per day.
If any dive operation wants to retain my services, they can PM me. I will gladly provide a real analysis and recommendations using their actual business data and needs for anyone who is willing to pay for the service. I'm not wasting my time on hypotheticals.
Jupiter31
Contributor
"Sounds like dive operators are trying to 'advertise' a lower trip cost so they treat the crew fee 'as tip'."
Yup - Now you got it!
Not a ton of "truth in advertizing", huh?
And based on what you posted previously, I think you are fine on the percentages you mentioned.
In truth, on some boats the DM is willing to work for tips only to get free diving - and often the opportunity to purchase gear at deeply discounted prices. Other times - no so much in the USA - the DM works for (mostly) tips and this is a great portion of their income.
Its not all that different in that servers, skycaps, bellmen, tour guides, casino dealers, many cruse personel, and so on and so forth - make their income mostly from tips - if they did not, and actually had to be paid a living wage, the cost to the consumer would be much greater.
No one really believes that cruse lines make money on the "$799 weekly 7 night special" - they don't - they make money on the drinks, insidentials, shore excursions, casino, and the 100 other things they want to sell you while aboard - point being that you can't look at the price of the cabin as the final price.
Its similar in diving - at least the places I've dove - if the trip is $60, I figure my cost is really $70 b/c I'm going to tip.
I don't think anyone likes it - but as I've said in other posts, until the system truly changes, I'm not going to stiff the workers depending on tips for their livelihood.
Yup - Now you got it!
Not a ton of "truth in advertizing", huh?
And based on what you posted previously, I think you are fine on the percentages you mentioned.
In truth, on some boats the DM is willing to work for tips only to get free diving - and often the opportunity to purchase gear at deeply discounted prices. Other times - no so much in the USA - the DM works for (mostly) tips and this is a great portion of their income.
Its not all that different in that servers, skycaps, bellmen, tour guides, casino dealers, many cruse personel, and so on and so forth - make their income mostly from tips - if they did not, and actually had to be paid a living wage, the cost to the consumer would be much greater.
No one really believes that cruse lines make money on the "$799 weekly 7 night special" - they don't - they make money on the drinks, insidentials, shore excursions, casino, and the 100 other things they want to sell you while aboard - point being that you can't look at the price of the cabin as the final price.
Its similar in diving - at least the places I've dove - if the trip is $60, I figure my cost is really $70 b/c I'm going to tip.
I don't think anyone likes it - but as I've said in other posts, until the system truly changes, I'm not going to stiff the workers depending on tips for their livelihood.
imwright1985
Contributor
its as simple as this the more you tip the less they have to officially make which means less they are forced to pay taxes on through whoever is handling the booking so if the boats cost goes up the campany booking you may charge more which in that case both have to claim taxes on officially brought in income. I know fishing charters you tip, so naturally expected dive charters you did, wasnt sure on instruction dives though.
Fair enough.
I was trying to get some clarity between RJP and I Dive. It sounds like RJPs dive boat is not in the same category (no slight meant, but RJP only mentioned diving Sat-Sun). The greatest fiscal impact would be seen in the smaller dive operations simply due to sheer volume. If I Dive did the calculations for the smaller ops, then the cost to pay a DM versus "working" for tips would be quite evident. One of the questions was which would be cheaper. I think RJP was probably right on in that if DMs were paid it would in the long run cost the customer more money and since nobody wants to actually crunch the numbers, I'll give him the nod.
Appreciate you guys!
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