Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[Shasta_man]

No further discovery or discussion is going on here. Now it's just about what a bad buddy she was, and how that somehow harmed everyone who's left, including several who never met her. From my experience, I'm surprised anyone is so upset about this. Leaving the group to go off wherever with zero preparation for solo diving is par for the course for many of the people I encounter on liveaboards. Typically, after a good dive briefing about where we are going to go, people immediately go off in twelve different directions as soon as we hit the water. Particularly people with cameras are completely unconcerned about venturing off wherever with no access to redundant air, usually coming back to the boat with 25 lbs left in their tank with stories of pushing limits for no tangible gain.

 

[Phil_C]

I would like to suggest a way forward that will keep this thread relevant and useful without causing undue distress to the people who were involved in this incident and may be monitoring this thread, and those of the staff or regulars who knew Querro well.

To my mind there are two main ways in which a thread like this can be useful and help educate and prevent accidents in the future.

Firstly - as the FACTS of this case gradually emerge it may be possible to learn what actually happened and to then discuss what went wrong. From that people can learn, maybe think about their own diving and hope to avoid any repetition. At the moment the facts are not known, there has been a lot of speculation, but the people closest to what happened, Querro's dive partners, have (in my view quite rightly) not said anything or made any sort of a statement yet. Further interviews are still pending with the police and the police will probably have advised the witnesses not to say anything publicly yet.

Whether we like it or not that is the situation - and we will have to live with it until either the official report is released, or the other divers feel they can comment publicly, if they ever feel comfortable to do so. Badgering for more information will not cause it to be forthcoming, and just serve to p**s a lot of folks off.

Secondly - because we do not have the full facts there is inevitably speculation, so long as that speculation does not become fanciful, or accusatory then the speculation in itself is a useful exercise because it causes people to consider what MIGHT have been the cause. I think this very valuable because in many ways it becomes a refresher for dive planning and preparation. I am also sure that not everyone following the thread will have as much knowledge of diving and what could go wrong as others, and it can be a great way to learn.

For this reason I think the speculation can and will lead to useful discussions - so long as no one tries to dress them up as pseudo science or facts. Be honest and say "it may be that ........"

What the thread should not be in my view is a vehicle for saying it was the divers own fault, it was the buddies fault, it was a kit or configuration fault and so on - until such time as we have facts to base those assumptions on.

I think these sort of threads in a forum really are ones where you should write a comment - put the kettle on and have a cup of tea - then come back and reread it before you hit send to make sure your comment actually conveys what you want it to.

Manage an accident thread in this way and I also suspect that the people close to the event who have information may feel more comfortable and able to speak and make comment if they are not feeling that they are going to get immediately flamed and blamed or criticised. So long term it will probably also mean that the thread gets more real facts.

So for now lets keep things to what we know, speculate or discuss OOA situations, poor buddy skills and so, but at the moment these should remain hypothetical learning discussions as we do not have the facts to make them anything else.

Phil

 

[ScubaInChicago]

What the thread should not be in my view is a vehicle for saying it was the divers own fault, it was the buddies fault, it was a kit or configuration fault and so on - until such time as we have facts to base those assumptions on.

These are the only points I will disagree with you on...She chose to leave the group and become a solo diver...The group started as a group and unless it was discussed that she was not to be part of the group, it was the groups responsibility to stay together and/or buddy pairs to stay together...If the dive was over and the group was at the surface, that would be a great time to discuss why the dive was called and why the dive would not continue as a group....If someone decides to be a solo diver, great, there is nothing wrong with solo diving, but unless you have the correct gear configuration and training you are foolishly playing with your life. These are all my OPINIONS and have not been unequivocally proven as FACTS, but I doubt there will ever be enough information made public to deny these statements.

I apologize in advance if this sounds callous or points blame to anyone "you" believe it shouldn't, but this is the reason it's an open forum for individuals to discuss the event that lead to this tragedy, and hopefully the loss of this life can prevent countless others.

 

[Phil_C]

These are the only points I will disagree with you on...She chose to leave the group and become a solo diver...The group started as a group and unless it was discussed that she was not to be part of the group, it was the groups responsibility to stay together and/or buddy pairs to stay together...If the dive was over and the group was at the surface, that would be a great time to discuss why the dive was called and why the dive would not continue as a group....If someone decides to be a solo diver, great, there is nothing wrong with solo diving, but unless you have the correct gear configuration and training you are foolishly playing with your life. These are all my OPINIONS and have not been unequivocally proven as FACTS, but I doubt there will ever be enough information made public to deny these statements.

I apologize in advance if this sounds callous or points blame to anyone "you" believe it shouldn't, but this is the reason it's an open forum for individuals to discuss the event that lead to this tragedy, and hopefully the loss of this life can prevent countless others.

Actually I would suggest we are not disagreeing here at all - I do not have a view either way about causation at the moment because we do not have enough facts, and actually your views do not sound callous to me. I would also say my comments were not aimed at yourself, or anyone in particular, nor any particular post - I am trying to help prompt the discussion to move forward in a constructive way.

I completely agree that if buddy skills were lacking and had broken down then it is entirely true that the normal avenue of gaining help in the event of a problem was no longer present. However - crucially what we cannot say at the moment is whether the breakdown would actually have made any difference to the outcome.

It could well be that whatever happened to Querro would have happened regardless and would not have been prevented or rectified if her buddy had been right next to her and holding her hand.

So a discussion about how the breakdown of the buddy skills removed the possibility of help and so on is valid in my view. A discussion that says that this is not safe practise unless planned for and redundant systems in place is equally valid, to say that this breakdown made any difference to the outcome of the event is not valid, until such time, if ever, that we know what the event actually was and that a buddy could have changed things.

Lack of a buddy close by, which I think is accepted, was one factor that removed a potential source of help. BUT we do not know whether or not that help, had it been close by, would have made any difference to the sad outcome.

I am tempted to start a thread along the lines of ​"How do you deal with an 'experienced' diver in a group who insists on wandering off and effectively going solo" that could be a real discussion and learning point coming from this. I'm sure may people have experienced this, and I am equally sure that many of them just carried on and were lucky nothing happened. So I think a discussion in which experienced divers share experiences and say what has worked or not worked to try to deal with this situation would be very worthwhile and instructive to other divers who may face this in the future. - Phil

 

[Diver0001]

These are the only points I will disagree with you on...She chose to leave the group and become a solo diver...The group started as a group and unless it was discussed that she was not to be part of the group, it was the groups responsibility to stay together and/or buddy pairs to stay together...If the dive was over and the group was at the surface, that would be a great time to discuss why the dive was called and why the dive would not continue as a group....If someone decides to be a solo diver, great, there is nothing wrong with solo diving, but unless you have the correct gear configuration and training you are foolishly playing with your life. These are all my OPINIONS and have not been unequivocally proven as FACTS, but I doubt there will ever be enough information made public to deny these statements.

I apologize in advance if this sounds callous or points blame to anyone "you" believe it shouldn't, but this is the reason it's an open forum for individuals to discuss the event that lead to this tragedy, and hopefully the loss of this life can prevent countless others.

Fair point. I think the facts support the conclusion that the buddy teams getting separated

a) could have been avoided
b) should have been avoided (which is easy to say after the fact)
c) directly contributed to her death

If you read *way* back in this thread you'll see a post where I explained in some detail how the buddy separation happened. It did not happen because of not caring about staying together, at least on the part of the buddies. There was a SNAFU in communication that was compounded by the fact that Marcia had a habit of just swimming away. At it's foundation, yes, it's a group responsibility, but everyone in the group has to first want it.

In fact, that might be a lesson to be taken from this thread. When you dive and your team cohesion is low with respect to principles, protocols and procedures then things like this can, and obviously do, happen.

It's easy after the fact to sit behind a keyboard and to judge the decisions this team made, but who among us has never gotten into the water with a buddy, especially a new one, and not had a period of adjustment before the "team" was working to satisfaction? There was a million to one chance that this would end as it did, but some people still win the lottery.

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7

R..

---------- Post added November 16th, 2013 at 01:13 AM ----------

I am tempted to start a thread along the lines of ​"How do you deal with an 'experienced' diver in a group who insists on wandering off and effectively going solo" that could be a real discussion and learning point coming from this.

Yeah. I've been mulling this over again and again in my mind. It's not only an issue for buddies who have to confront more experiences buddies in a team about their behaviour, but for the more experienced ones it's a problem too.

So not only, "How do you confront an 'experienced' buddy about their behaviour"

but, "How do I, as an experienced diver, remain open to feedback from my buddies"

These threads haven't spun off from this yet (please go ahead and start them in Basic, Phil) but they should, because one of the big lessons in this disaster is about communication.

R..

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Fair point. I think the facts support the conclusion that the buddy teams getting separated

a) could have been avoided
b) should have been avoided (which is easy to say after the fact)
[-]c) directly contributed to her death[/-]

.... to say that this breakdown made any difference to the outcome of the event is not valid, until such time, if ever, that we know what the event actually was and that a buddy could have changed things.

Lack of a buddy close by, which I think is accepted, was one factor that removed a potential source of help. BUT we do not know whether or not that help, had it been close by, would have made any difference to the sad outcome.

I don't 100% believe that having a buddy, team, or different gear configuration would result in a different outcome. As stated before, there may have been an underlying medical issue that caused sudden death. I can't and won't argue that and if it is the case, hopefully it will become apparent in an autopsy report.

My thought process on the breakdown of the buddy system is that if help could have been rendered, no one was there to help. If it was brought on suddenly and someone were there to witness it firsthand, this thread wouldn't be closing in on 900 posts.

I have no dog in this fight. I also realized that I'm walking on thin ice with moderators every time I post and wish everyone well, especially the people who were there and will live with their decisions each day. Hopefully good factual information comes forth, speculation ends, and everyone gets closure.

Good Day

 

[Phil_C]

These threads haven't spun off from this yet (please go ahead and start them in Basic, Phil) but they should, because one of the big lessons in this disaster is about communication.

R..

Done - P

 

[danvolker]

I have not read deep into this thread...but I think I recall that Marcia was shooting pictures. As to buddy system breakdown, when you begin shooting stills or video, the better you get ( the closer you are to pro level with jobs based on your shots), and the higher level the publications are( $$ or prestige), the more likely that at some point the buddy system will not be followed.
First, the photographer CAN NOT keep the buddies in sight, while composing the shots, and waiting for the perfect position, and the stars to align. So the shooter is not really a buddy to the other buddy(s).
Next, the buddy(s) of the shooter have a huge job to keep track of the shooter, who may very easily see that Nat Geo moment--only have an instant to see it and go after it...and they can disappear from buddy(s) vision and radar in the space of 5 or 10 seconds....and then they are on their own unless a search in instituted--with no guarantee they will find the shooter before the end of the dive....If this happens again, and again, the buddies will get bugged by this, and at some point may give up the insta-searches..
The shooter is not going to give up their shots or their "art".....
My wife is fortunate to either have what she calls her "Dive Slaves" to dive with her....a number of good friends that like the things she finds, and they are good with watching her, virtually every second. Sandra is a pro shooter, and there is no changing her behavior...I would not really want her to...it would mean lowering the quality of the shots she could get.


Point here, is that if this is a shooting issue, then I don't know that there could be any blame...No one is going to stop a photographer from shooting!!!

 

[Stoo]

I've been popping in to follow this thread every now and again, and it amazes me that a thread about an accident that is completely explainable can carry on for 888 posts and counting.

I've been doing this diving thing for a long time, and routinely break all of the "rules" that are being cited here, as do most of the people I dive with... The only real difference is that when we are diving solo, we are appropriately equipped.

The only thing that makes this accident any different from many others, is that it involved one of our own. Which is, of course, utterly irrelevant when it comes to analyzing the events leading to Quero's death.

The simple reality is that it appears (because we don't really know the actual cause of her death at this point), that she made a few pretty basic errors in judgement, and added together, they overwhelmed her. Anyone who has read my posts on these threads has heard me say this before... It happens all the time... Complacency. A diver that is quite experienced, takes on new gear, and new tasks, and bang. There is really nothing new to be learned here.

Our local dive community lost a friend this summer when he was diving in the Florida caves. As much as his fans didn't like to hear it, he too messed up. He chose to dive using an untested tank and ended up toxing out. That thread went on forever too, and got ugly at times, but there was arguably a few good things to come out of it. Mostly though, it was a reinforcement that complacency kills. Period.

So don't pull a muscle trying to understand what happened here. Baring some new information like an underlying health issue, we need to accept that diving is potentially an extremely dangerous activity. It's easy to do, but make no mistake, the consequences of making an error or errors can be harsh. The PADIfication of our sport has put pursuing it into the reach of everyone, and that's a cool thing. At the same time, I think we sometimes forget that that every time we sink below the surface, it's possible, that we might not come back up. Admittedly, you can say the same thing about driving, taking a shower or cutting the grass. It's all a question of degree.

So before you dive next, pause and reflect and ask yourself the following:
*Are you mentally and physically prepared for the dive?
*Is your gear working properly?
*If you are diving with a new bit of gear, are you sure you know how to use it?
*Do you KNOW what gas you are breathing? Have you personally tested it?
*Are you and your buddy in agreement about what happens should you become separated?
*Do you have a dive plan and is your buddy in agreement?
*Are the conditions ok, and within YOUR capabilities to dive? Tides? Currents? Wind? Visibility etc.?

The list could go on, and on...

Diving is an amazing hobby. I'll be celebrating 40 years of doing it next spring, and after 5000+ dives, I've had a few "Come to Jesus" moments, that had "this and that" not sorted themselves out properly, I'd have been the subject of a thread here.

If nothing else, Quero's unfortunate passing will serve as a reminder to the rest of us that we are all capable of messing up and having a really, really bad day.

 

[abnfrog]

I've been popping in to follow this thread every now and again, and it amazes me that a thread about an accident that is completely explainable can carry on for 888 posts and counting.

I've been doing this diving thing for a long time, and routinely break all of the "rules" that are being cited here, as do most of the people I dive with... The only real difference is that when we are diving solo, we are appropriately equipped.

The only thing that makes this accident any different from many others, is that it involved one of our own. Which is, of course, utterly irrelevant when it comes to analyzing the events leading to Quero's death.

The simple reality is that it appears (because we don't really know the actual cause of her death at this point), that she made a few pretty basic errors in judgement, and added together, they overwhelmed her. Anyone who has read my posts on these threads has heard me say this before... It happens all the time... Complacency. A diver that is quite experienced, takes on new gear, and new tasks, and bang. There is really nothing new to be learned here.

Our local dive community lost a friend this summer when he was diving in the Florida caves. As much as his fans didn't like to hear it, he too messed up. He chose to dive using an untested tank and ended up toxing out. That thread went on forever too, and got ugly at times, but there was arguably a few good things to come out of it. Mostly though, it was a reinforcement that complacency kills. Period.

So don't pull a muscle trying to understand what happened here. Baring some new information like an underlying health issue, we need to accept that diving is potentially an extremely dangerous activity. It's easy to do, but make no mistake, the consequences of making an error or errors can be harsh. The PADIfication of our sport has put pursuing it into the reach of everyone, and that's a cool thing. At the same time, I think we sometimes forget that that every time we sink below the surface, it's possible, that we might not come back up. Admittedly, you can say the same thing about driving, taking a shower or cutting the grass. It's all a question of degree.

So before you dive next, pause and reflect and ask yourself the following:
*Are you mentally and physically prepared for the dive?
*Is your gear working properly?
*If you are diving with a new bit of gear, are you sure you know how to use it?
*Do you KNOW what gas you are breathing? Have you personally tested it?
*Are you and your buddy in agreement about what happens should you become separated?
*Do you have a dive plan and is your buddy in agreement?
*Are the conditions ok, and within YOUR capabilities to dive? Tides? Currents? Wind? Visibility etc.?

The list could go on, and on...

Diving is an amazing hobby. I'll be celebrating 40 years of doing it next spring, and after 5000+ dives, I've had a few "Come to Jesus" moments, that had "this and that" not sorted themselves out properly, I'd have been the subject of a thread here.

If nothing else, Quero's unfortunate passing will serve as a reminder to the rest of us that we are all capable of messing up and having a really, really bad day.

stoo you hit the nail on the head and cut threw all the crap
Complacency/(and panic ) kills ...we learned that (same as you 40 years ago ) basic ow class then it was rammed home in combat (maybe why im still here ) i still stress it in all my classes from ow to tech and rebreather