Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

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As I read Quero's posts during the Oz trip, as she was working on her trim in the dry suit, she seemed to be considering adding a bit extra weight as a way to help her achieve proper trim.
OK, if you have been following a lot of recent threads, you know that I may seem to me rabid in my obsession with proper weighting. Consequently, what follows will seem to be a contradiction.

A number of years ago I was very much dialed in to getting my total weighting perfect. I determined that if I were wearing the BCD I owned (ScubaPro Nighthawk) with a 3mm suit, I was perfectly weighted in salt water with 8 pounds of lead. I further determined that if I distributed that lead in 2 pound weights in the hip pockets and the shoulder pockets, I was also in perfect trim.

Around that time I started doing tech training in steel doubles, dry suit, and a steel back plate, I got used to being very much overweighted, and I got used to focusing on getting perfect trim. (For those of you who don't know, on a fairly basic tech dive, you might lose 15 pounds of air during the dive, so you must start the dive significantly overweighted.)

Then I went on a recreational diving trip to a warm water resort in my 3mm suit. I discovered that the boat I was on stocked nothing but 4 pound weights. That meant that if I wanted to go with my ideal 8 pounds of weight, I would have a serious distribution problem. I did not want to have it all on my hips, and I did not want to be lopsided. I thought it through for a long time and finally decided that as accustomed as I had become to being overwieghted through my tech training, I would try an even distribution of 4 pound weights among my 4 weight pickets. That means I would have a total of 16 pounds--8 pounds overweighted.

It was a great dive. I was in perfect trim throughout the dive, and I could control my buoyancy easily. I stayed with that weight configuration throughout the week.

I came to the conclusion that, at that point in my diving career, although weight and trim were both important, trim was for me more important. Of course, I had had a lot more experience than a lot of divers. I was used to diving overweighted. I am sure it would have been a real problem if I had done that earlier in my career.

Perhaps she was working on the same theory.
 
My apologies for a long post. I wish I could be more succinct, but there's been misinterpretation of the concept I am trying to raise, so I believe a more full explanation is warranted...

The lesson is that you don't have to give in to panic if you can avoid it. But you dismiss it as something impossible.

Panic isn't a choice. It is neither something you choose to do, or choose not to do.

I believe panic occurs when the person concerned has no further options left - when they accept, or believe, that immediate death is forthcoming. People vary in when they make that acceptance. That acceptance is further varied by factors such as; experience, training and confidence.

Marcia had a lot of training - that tends to delay panic, because the diver knows there are solutions available.

Marcia had a lot of experience - she would have learned that air-depletion was not instantly fatal, that there is time to resolve an issue.

Marcia had a lot of confidence - she would have dealt with many problems in her past diving, which she had survived.

In contrast, a novice diver; who might be weaker in one or more of these areas, might encounter hopelessness at a much earlier stage - and thus, panic earlier.

As we all agree, panic is a bad thing that decreases the chance of survival underwater. It is a thoughtless, instinctive survival mechanism - which ultimately tends to prove counter-productive for underwater emergencies, where problem solving and calm, rational response is optimal.

Panic is one end of a scale. On the other end of the scale is an unnaturally subdued sense of risk. I'd suggest that this was also a bad thing, decreasing the chance of survival underwater. It occurs when the diver develops a very high level of experience, training and confidence. It manifests as a failure to acknowledge the severity of a situation until a very late stage; potentially only when the incident has progressed beyond hope of resolution.

I don't doubt that many divers reading this thread would struggle to accept this point. I mean, since when did "slow, calm, controlled and unperturbed" become a bad thing? HOW can it be a bad thing?

All I can say is... become an instructor, do 8000 dives... and then give yourself an honest assessment. Because, until you're at that level, you won't understand how un-threatening many underwater problems can appear; or how that psychology can negatively influence your response to a critical emergency.

Absence of panic is a good thing, but absence of fear is very dangerous.

I believe that absence of fear is a state that very highly experienced divers do obtain; even in an emergency scenario. We strive to suppress the acute panic response.. and are successful in doing that over a long process of development. However, that suppression is invariably achieved by gaining vast confidence in our ability to resolve and survive problems. It only works for as long as we retain that confidence and its loss can be more psychologically traumatic than if we had less confidence to begin with.

Fear to failure is never a shock. Confidence to failure is a great shock. Panic evolves from shock.

The lesson I wish to draw from this is primarily for very experienced divers. I acknowledge that it might seem incomprehensible to those of lesser experience. I do not want that to sound condescending; it is merely a statement of reality.

You think I'm naive, sheltered and inexperienced for thinking so.

No. I just think your relative inexperience prevents you from seeing the nuance of my point. I mean no insult or criticism in that.

The preceding comments relate to comparatively looking at other less panic prone ways of dying and concluding that they are not necessarily better. So if you have the misfortune to consciously encounter a situation were you might be drowning, you have one more argument against succumbing to panic. I'm not saying it is easy. I'm not saying anybody can do it. I'm not even saying I can do it. I hope I can but, honestly, I am not sure. To you it seems that it is impossible for anybody.

We're all learning different lessons from Marcia's death. The incident has triggered us to think about ourselves, more so than any previous fatality discussed here in the Accidents & Incidents forum. Firstly, because Marcia was "one of us". Secondly, because we knew Marcia... we knew she understood the issues that contributed to her death. We knew she had read the same threads as us, discussed the same failings, learned the same lessons. We also knew she was a very experienced diver and instructor. In short, we can't dismiss her as "some ill-informed idiot". She wasn't... and that's scary.

I've done a lot of self-examination as a result of this. The 'basics' I am content with - diving with unfamiliar equipment, weak buddy procedures, over-weighting, insufficient BCD buoyancy... Those are good lessons learned - and all readers of the thread acknowledge that. BUT.. for me... the real issues require more insight to decipher:

1) How such an experienced diver could get themselves into a situation where they are making such rookie mistakes?

2) How such an experienced diver could fail to resolve those mistakes under such benign diving circumstances?

The first issue can be explained away through 'complacency'. We know and understand this. Marcia knew and understood this. And yet... she still made that mistake. I believe to draw a real lesson from that, we need to identify how and why complacency occurs... and, perhaps, some definitive guidance to help others avoid it. Merely understanding that complacency occurs is not enough to prevent it. It wasn't enough for Marcia. So what prevents it?

The second issue is much more complex. It's much harder to fathom. I see that it has caused considerable exasperation in this thread already. How could such an experienced diver have categorically failed to enact any successful resolution to their problem, when so many potential resolutions existed? The truth is, that incident was eminently survivable, especially for a diver of Marcia's experience, training and comfort.

'Medical issues' were raised as an initial explanation, but (as far as I am aware) have been ruled out through autopsy. That confused us. So, some people have suggest 'panic' as the answer to that. And yet, 'panic' seems inconsistent with Marcia's experience, training and comfort. Highly experienced dive instructors rarely panic when initially confronted with buoyancy issues and/or air-depletion. There was time to resolve that and there were multiple solutions to resolve that.

So why didn't Marcia use that time, to apply a solution to survive? This is what we are struggling to understand.

For panic to 'work' as an explanation; to explain why time was not used effectively, it would have to manifested immediately upon the incident arising. That seems implausible.

So, I look for an alternative reason. I look at myself and how I dive... how I feel when I dive... how I respond to stressors underwater. What I see is the opposite of panic - I see the absence of fear. I see utter calm and control and confidence. I see a diver unable to comprehend the seriousness of the situation due to a profoundly ingrained belief in themselves and their capability. Not a fragile over-confidence... a legitimate, solid confidence.

Except that confidence itself was a downfall. It delayed appropriate response. It meant that precious, finite, time was wasted. It meant the 'emergency' wasn't acknowledged until too late.

How does a diver easily capable of resolving an emergency fail to resolve an emergency? By not realizing that an emergency existed...

Marcia may have recognized the problems at the time. Out-of-air and unable to get positively buoyant. She knew not to panic. Her conditioning and experience allowed her to suppress that panic. However, she may have done so too well... to the point of disregarding the seriousness of her situation.

It's hard to describe unless you've experienced it. I have experienced it.

I have been underwater, suffering air depletion and not given a sh*t. I have been shallow, or had access to redundant gas, or had a reliable buddy... or just plain knew that I could deal with the issue, one way or another. No drama. It's happened a hundred times, one way or another. No panic.

Only in hindsight, if you take the time to honestly assess the situation, do you realize it was a close-call. Even then... unperturbed... it's a hypothetical.

I think it's plausible that Marcia experienced the same. In very shallow water, breathing fumes, unable to ascend. No alarm bells rang. No drama. Ultimately, that may have contributed towards a significant inaction.

DumpsterDiver says it would only take 12 seconds to dump weight. Maybe Marcia didn't allow herself those 12 seconds? Maybe she was too relaxed and therefore cut it way too close?

You argue for hypothetical vs practical scenarios saying that military in training and buddied free divers don't panic because they know they have this safety net that will prevent them from dying. So then I'm supposed to believe that solo free divers that down, all drown in panic? Not logical. And military personnel once they get real life harassment outside their training safety net, they all panic sometime before dying?

I don't want this side-issue to distract from the points I've raised above...it's generic, rather than specific to this incident, so perhaps a new thread on the subject if you want to discuss?
 
Marcia may have recognized the problems at the time. Out-of-air and unable to get positively buoyant. She knew not to panic. Her conditioning and experience allowed her to suppress that panic. However, she may have done so too well... to the point of disregarding the seriousness of her situation.

It's hard to describe unless you've experienced it. I have experienced it.

I have been underwater, suffering air depletion and not given a sh*t. I have been shallow, or had access to redundant gas, or had a reliable buddy... or just plain knew that I could deal with the issue, one way or another. No drama. It's happened a hundred times, one way or another. No panic.

Only in hindsight, if you take the time to honestly assess the situation, do you realize it was a close-call. Even then... unperturbed... it's a hypothetical.

I think it's plausible that Marcia experienced the same. In very shallow water, breathing fumes, unable to ascend. No alarm bells rang. No drama. Ultimately, that may have contributed towards a significant inaction.

DumpsterDiver says it would only take 12 seconds to dump weight. Maybe Marcia didn't allow herself those 12 seconds? Maybe she was too relaxed and therefore cut it way too close?

What you describe isn't necessarily the product of extreme diving experience, IMO -- it's the product of extreme comfort with water. I have only been a diver for a few years, but have been in, on, and under the water in a competitive, recreational, and/or professional capacity for over thirty years. Although I know I cannot breathe water, I know from experience that swallowing it, choking on it, having it flood my sinuses, having the :censored: beaten out of me on/under it, and being covered by and/or swept along along with it are all NBD so long as I stay relaxed and keep my head. So I can see frittering away time calmly trying various solutions to a problem of being low/OOA but too negative to swim up, even ignoring it entirely for a bit at first, before going for a drastic solution like ditching the rig entirely.

What I can't see, though, is the kind of comfort you describe translating into a cliff of the sort necessary to produce the results that occured here. My understanding of that kind of comfort is that it greatly extends the point at which you begin to worry, but that there's still a progression from worry to fear to OhgodIcan'tfixthis! Short of Quero being the kind of freediving phenom who might hold her breath without thought or overt discomfort until she literally blacked out, I don't see how she realistically only gets serious about her predicament with 10 or so seconds left on the clock and then transitions to panic so quickly she forgets she has minutes of gas in her wing.
 
The more I read about the facts of this sad event the more I think some form of shallow water blackout rendered Quero helpless. It seems to fit with what happened and explains questions such as "why didn't she drop some weight?"
 
The more I read about the facts of this sad event the more I think some form of shallow water blackout rendered Quero helpless. It seems to fit with what happened and explains questions such as "why didn't she drop some weight?"

If she were oxygen starved....and at sufficient depth that the pO2 was raised to support consciousness. And then ascended (which is very questionable) sufficient depth for that pO2 to drop and cause a black-out.

None of which boldy fits the circumstances, especially the depth/pO2 issue.

Or she just blacked-out as the point hypoxia overcame her. The normal precursor to drowning. Which still doesn't explain why she didn't drop weights, does it?

---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 01:53 PM ----------

... there's still a progression from worry to fear to OhgodIcan'tfixthis!
That is precisely what I am questioning - that this progression was delayed through conditioning.

I don't see how she realistically only gets serious about her predicament with 10 or so seconds left on the clock and then transitions to panic so quickly she forgets she has minutes of gas in her wing.

I did mention it might be hard to understand for most.
 
If she were oxygen starved....and at sufficient depth that the pO2 was raised to support consciousness. And then ascended (which is very questionable) sufficient depth for that pO2 to drop and cause a black-out.

None of which boldy fits the circumstances, especially the depth/pO2 issue.

Or she just blacked-out as the point hypoxia overcame her. The normal precursor to drowning. Which still doesn't explain why she didn't drop weights, does it?
---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 01:53 PM ----------


That is precisely what I am questioning - that this progression was delayed through conditioning.



I did mention it might be hard to understand for most.

I think it may hinge on what we don't know. Did she try to kick her way to the surface during the last few seconds before her O2 was depleted? We don't know. The effort involved in that action may have put her CO2 level "over the top" causing a blackout? If she thought she had the time she may not have dropped the weights? I was also careful to use the term "some type of shallow blackout" not just shallow water blackout. Slamfires post adds more to consider to this train of thought.
 
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None of which boldy fits the circumstances, especially the depth/pO2 issue.

Or she just blacked-out as the point hypoxia overcame her. The normal precursor to drowning. Which still doesn't explain why she didn't drop weights, does it?
Static apnea is a form of freediving. Basically you just put your face in the water and see how long you can keep it underwater while floating face down in the surface practically motionless. Static apnea blackouts are very common. Whether it's hypoxic or hypercapnic doesn't really matter, the end result for Quero would have been the same. A 2004 study points out that on average 10% of static apnea performances get disqualified due to signs of hypoxia. Even though blackouts could be considered just one of the signs, most (if not all) other signs are incapacitating enough by themselves.

According to this other document, under certain conditions it seems that it is not uncommon for apneists to blackout without feeling much of an urge to breath. Quero probably wasn't under these conditions, but my point is that you don't have to be a phenom in order to hold your breath until you blackout. I think it is plausible that Quero was so comfortable in the water that she stayed down trying to solve her issues while holding her breath and a blackout creeped up on her unexpectedly.

For illustrative purposes, here's a couple of short videos of static apnea blackouts:

Freediving Blackout - static apnoe - YouTube
[youtubehq]k9u5E25P5Qo[/youtubehq]

Apnea - Samba - YouTube
[youtubehq]C6JrJ1CWV5Q[/youtubehq]

---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 01:09 AM ----------

One more video and then I'll go to sleep. This guy doesn't even seem to be aware that he just had a blackout.

STA6.58 apnea samba - YouTube
[youtubehq]4KzgLezDmOw[/youtubehq]
 
I was under the belief that 'shallow water blackout' described a specific physiological occurrence - one that manifests through the drop in pO2 on ascent. As mentioned, otherwise she would have just 'blacked out' (hypoxia). The alternative would have been water inhalation (depending whether the regulator stayed in her mouth or not), also leading to hypoxia and unconsciousness. This merely describes the process of drowning. Autopsy might determine whether hypoxia occurred due to water inhalation or not.

Either way...she drowned.

The idea that she might not have had 'urge' to breath before blacking out is not implausible. Or at least, that she might have breath-held beyond the urge to breath - until eventually hypoxia claimed her. This, I think, would go somewhat to supporting my concept of experiential-conditioning suppression of acute stress response, that I described above.
 
OK, if you have been following a lot of recent threads, you know that I may seem to me rabid in my obsession with proper weighting. Consequently, what follows will seem to be a contradiction.

A number of years ago I was very much dialed in to getting my total weighting perfect. I determined that if I were wearing the BCD I owned (ScubaPro Nighthawk) with a 3mm suit, I was perfectly weighted in salt water with 8 pounds of lead. I further determined that if I distributed that lead in 2 pound weights in the hip pockets and the shoulder pockets, I was also in perfect trim.

Around that time I started doing tech training in steel doubles, dry suit, and a steel back plate, I got used to being very much overweighted, and I got used to focusing on getting perfect trim. (For those of you who don't know, on a fairly basic tech dive, you might lose 15 pounds of air during the dive, so you must start the dive significantly overweighted.)

Then I went on a recreational diving trip to a warm water resort in my 3mm suit. I discovered that the boat I was on stocked nothing but 4 pound weights. That meant that if I wanted to go with my ideal 8 pounds of weight, I would have a serious distribution problem. I did not want to have it all on my hips, and I did not want to be lopsided. I thought it through for a long time and finally decided that as accustomed as I had become to being overwieghted through my tech training, I would try an even distribution of 4 pound weights among my 4 weight pickets. That means I would have a total of 16 pounds--8 pounds overweighted.

It was a great dive. I was in perfect trim throughout the dive, and I could control my buoyancy easily. I stayed with that weight configuration throughout the week.

I came to the conclusion that, at that point in my diving career, although weight and trim were both important, trim was for me more important. Of course, I had had a lot more experience than a lot of divers. I was used to diving overweighted. I am sure it would have been a real problem if I had done that earlier in my career.

Perhaps she was working on the same theory.

I agree, carrying more ballast than is actually needed for the dive is not particularly dangerous in itself for some divers. I used to golf ball dive with snow boots on and a heavy belt and extra lead that allowed me to walk, (stumble bent over forward actually) along the bottom like a "deep sea diver" while wearing scuba gear. The only swimming I could do was with my hands. The extra weight does have advantages in certain circumstances.

However, if you have half a brain, you make damn sure you can ditch that lead in an instant. The "safe" solution for diving over weighted is not just to have a BC that can support it, but also to have the ability to drop it and survive if the BC spring or zip tie or hose or bladder fails. It seems she had neither a capable BC nor the ability/desire to drop lead. either of which would have most likely changed the outcome.

---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 06:00 AM ----------

I was under the belief that 'shallow water blackout' described a specific physiological occurrence - one that manifests through the drop in pO2 on ascent. As mentioned, otherwise she would have just 'blacked out' (hypoxia). The alternative would have been water inhalation (depending whether the regulator stayed in her mouth or not), also leading to hypoxia and unconsciousness. This merely describes the process of drowning. Autopsy might determine whether hypoxia occurred due to water inhalation or not.

Either way...she drowned.

The idea that she might not have had 'urge' to breath before blacking out is not implausible. Or at least, that she might have breath-held beyond the urge to breath - until eventually hypoxia claimed her. This, I think, would go somewhat to supporting my concept of experiential-conditioning suppression of acute stress response, that I described above.

Was she an accomplished freediver? If not, it is very unlikely that a normal person who has not practiced and subjected themselves to endless cycles of hypoxia and CO2 build-up is going to be "comfortable" pushing themselves close to a BO... Doing a lot of scuba diving is not equivalent to this type of training..

The ability to breathhold to the point of BO is often assoicated with (excess) hyperventilation which precedes the dive and artificially depresses the CO2 and consequently the urge to breath. And of course it is vastly more common on ascent.
 
I have seen quite a few instructors and DM's do that over the years, and wondered just how much extra weight some of them have on board.
I typically go about 3 lbs overboard. In my weightbelt I keep a 3# weight and two 2# weights in the front pockets on either side of the belt. If a student needs them I can easily transfer either the 3# or one or both of the 2# weights to the student without causing myself any issues.

When I'm diving outside of class I have to remember to lose that weight ... especially when carrying my camera, which is a couple lbs negative ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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