Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[Slamfire]

For all the possible hypotheses Im yet to read too much about the possibility of the camera being a liability in the sense of Marcia encountering a subject at the end of the dive and assuming that the amount of air at such shallow depth would have allowed her to get into ooa situation as she was busy photographing a critter? Perhaps a correlation between time of last shots and time of computer depth data may yield some answers. I myself had a dive early this year in familiar waters and been so focussed on taking shots of something toward the end of the dive in shallow waters knowing roughly that I had about 40-50 bar left, snapping away at 8m to realise that squeezing feel on the regulator and having lost all track of time checked my gauge to 10 bar. Instead of bolting to surface I was calm and decided to slowly ascend instead of shooting up to the surface.

I wonder if this calm rational (non panicked) state that I was in may have possibly resulted in a shallow water blackout due to PO2 levels or perhaps I may have simply run out of air totally at 4-5 m and drowned. Maybe bolting to surface with haste may have been safer even with risk of dci but at surface my chance of srvival is better...?

Panic survival mode? Or lack of ... leading to possibly complacency? Whats is better ...or worse?

All my gear was familiar, tropical wetsuit configuration that had hundreds of dives in. I got lucky this time and I live to tell this tale. Perhaps as Andy theorized in Marcias case this lack of immediacy due a rationale state of confidence in her ability to get to safety could have occured which was compounded by shooting the camera to the detriment of paying attention to the ongoing gauge reading compounded by new drysuit/ weighting issue. Lack of panic haste and possible blackout with camera and last minute critter shot as a co influence for an unfortunate chain of events leading to drowning.

I concurr. When you're coming out of a dive and going towards the shore 7 or 10 ft seem like nothing - you're there. Done. Dive concluded successfully. All you need to do now is stand. How hard can it be? Gives you a false sense of security. Dump weights? No need. I'm shallow enough. With my luck, I'll probably just end up losing them.

Was she an accomplished freediver? If not, it is very unlikely that a normal person who has not practiced and subjected themselves to endless cycles of hypoxia and CO2 build-up is going to be "comfortable" pushing themselves close to a BO... Doing a lot of scuba diving is not equivalent to this type of training..

It's not. But passing out comfortably is not a training objective for a free diver. Quite the contrary, a BO is a failure. You don't train to "achieve" failure. I see it fairly likely for someone that is very comfortable in the water to hold their breath in 7 feet depth until they pass out unexpectedly. That third video of the blackout illustrates it well. The guy passed out and never knew he did. He came out of it giving the OK sign and proclaiming he was ok.

The ability to breathhold to the point of BO is often assoicated with (excess) hyperventilation which precedes the dive and artificially depresses the CO2 and consequently the urge to breath. And of course it is vastly more common on ascent.

You are describing a hypoxic blackout. There are also hypercapnic blackouts. The headache scuba divers experience after a dive could very well be associated with some degree of hypercapnia. I wouldn't think Quero was hypercapnic to the point of BO. I also do not think she somehow purged her CO2 levels before she passed out. But I do think that with her experience and under those very benign conditions, it is likely that she was able to willingly push her breath hold to the point of a unexpected BO.

 

[beaverdivers]

FWIW - many dive instructors chronically dive overweighted. That's because when you're working with students it's much easier to just pull out some of your own weight for the student if they need it than it is to go back to a buoy, boat, or beach to retrieve more weight.

Once you get used to diving that way, you often don't make adjustments for those times when you're not teaching.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Correct. But we ( instructors ) only dive 2 lbs - 4 lbs overweighted, maybe 6 lbs.

Quero might have been 12 lbs - 20 lbs overweighted.

However, I don't believe the fact that she was overweighted caused her final demise. In the final photo, she was neutrally buoyant with her B.C. full and little air in her dry suit at depth ( 30' -40'/10m - 13' ).

When she was found on the bottom her B.C. was full. Don't these facts point out that she would have been close to neutral buoyancy in the final 10'/3 meters?

The buoyancy of her tank would have been much more positive relative to the beginning of her dive by about 6 lbs and more positive than in the final photo. Her B.C. was almost full. Her dry suit did not flood.

She was negative when the divers found her due to loss of air in her lungs, etc.

A dry suit does not loose air when a diver descends and the dry suit valve is open in the automatic position. She would have a little air in the dry suit.

Perhaps, she had leg cramp(s) as she headed to the surface after running out of air. She had had previous issues with her leg(s).

As she swims up from 10'/3m, she approaches the surface. Her B.C. & dry suit vent air. Then her leg(s) cramp up. She sinks. Then her B.C & dry suit become more negative.

 

[Under the Sea]

Reading the post speculating on the cause or causes of Marcia's death has made me reevaluate my diving practices. I have been diving about ten years, with about 356 dives.......So I would be a novice compared to the years of experience and dives Marcia had in her logbook. Her death has been a real eye opener for me!
i'm strictly a warm water diver, so the concept of a drysuit is foreign to me. As a woman with a non diving husband, I am often buddied up with a stranger on the boat....sometimes a single diver and sometimes a husband and wife team. As a photographer I try not to buddy up with another photographer, especially one that I do not know! I know I have become very complacent in my buddy skills, especially when my attention is focused on my camera screen to get the perfect picture of my subject! Not only am I endangering myself.....but my lack of attention to my buddy is putting them at serious risk.
It is often said that out of every bad situation something good comes out of it! Marcia, your untimely death has become a teaching tool for me and many other divers. You have made us all face our own morality, and maybe rethink our diving skills and practices.......hopefully making us all better divers!
Thank you for this last gift!
RIP Marcia!​

 

[DaleC]

...
A dry suit does not loose air when a diver descends and the dry suit valve is open in the automatic position. She would have a little air in the dry suit.

What?

The point being missed is that she was on the surface at the end of a dive and had to descend. To do this she probably opened her shoulder valve to the point that it started venting and perhaps intentionally/accidentally forgot to close it. Thus, she would have vented her drysuit to descend. The reason it was not flooded is because she was so overweighted, it did not have to create a near negative atmosphere inside. She probably dropped with some air still in the suit.

I dive vintage gear with close to neutral weighting. If I were on the surface at the end of a dive and wanted to descend I would have to do the funky chicken to force enough air out of the suit to descend. If I dropped far enough it would put on a hard squeeze and I would have water come into the suit to try and equalize the pressure. Quero would not have gotten there, she would hit the bottom before such a squeeze occurred.

That of course is speculation. She could have also kept her valve as it was and dumped from her BC and then refilled the BC at depth.. but I find trying to descend with an over inflated DS (which it often is on the surface for comfort, rest, etc...) dumping something from the DS comes naturally or you feel a bit like the Michelin man till you achieve depth, which she would not do sufficiently at 10'. I can't see her wanting to feel like that trying to take benthic pictures.




gee13 asked about the camera. I've mentioned it several times. I think it could have played a major role in allowing whatever scenario unfold from addressable to unrecoverable. But again, speculation:

First it probably was the cause for deciding to be negative.
Second, it created goals which drove her to make poor solo/extended BT decisions.
Third, task fixation could have caused her to ignore early warning signs.
Fourth, it could have impeded her ability/choice to dump weight (having hands tied up holding it).
Fifth, it could have made swimming up and/or maintaining the surface more difficult (weight and loss of hand movement).

One could have a whole discussion just on the unintended hazards of photography/videography. I believe a camera is the most dangerous piece of equipment a diver can own.

 

[Bob DBF]

One could have a whole discussion just on the unintended hazards of photography/videography. I believe a camera is the most dangerous piece of equipment a diver can own.

That's why I have a POS snapshot camera and housing that I dive with occasionally and I don't care if get the pictures or miss them, they will never be great in any event.



Bob
------------------
Oh, oh it’s a dangerous world
Jimmy Buffett

 

[dumpsterDiver]

This is something I couldn't comment upon from personal experience. Freedivers train to ignore the urge at leisure - but I think many people, especially experienced divers, could do it if their life was on the line. I've gone beyond the urge to breathe, but that was when skin-diving (with hyperventilation). I've gone as far as the 'gulps' when air-depleted on scuba - but stopped there (kinda what I mentioned in a previous post about pushing things too far and not feeling unduely scared... the "gulps" is where I get my alarm call finally... and that is pretty close to the end of it...)

I assume that if a diver keeps the regulator in, under air-depletion they would be sucking on that (getting nothing) until the point of black-out. It would be involuntary. In other circumstances, (regulator out) the diver would have inhaled water.

Having said that, I don't think the freediving training allows people to 'ignore the urge' through hyperventilation/CO2 depression - I thought they all go through that urge, but only practice of resisting the urge allowed them to pass beyond it. The hyperventilation just delayed that a little, nothing more.

Watching documentaries about miltiary diving training in the USA, there seems to be quite a few 'black-outs' during the harassment phases in the pool...

the "gulps" is what a knowledgeable diver knows as "contractions". They are involuntary spasms of the diaphragm and are signals that you really ought to be thinking about getting a breath soon.

Some people get them early and often and can withstand dozens of them on a very hard dive and other people claim to never have them at all. In any case, they are uncomfortable, miserable is what I would call them. Normal people, even good free divers can not experience them without "knowing it". It is a very strong signal that will cause panic in many people.

I don't agree that she just hung out underwater with nothing to breath and then passed out with no warning. Obviously she should have ditched lead when her BC was full, her tank was MT and she was still heavy. Who knows why she didn't? I think it more likely that she tried to kick like hell and reach the surface, possibly reached it, fought like heck to stay there and gasp some breaths, totally fatigued her legs and then sunk back down. Seems more plausible then sitting on the bottom in a statis waiting to pass out.

 

[gee13]

gee13 asked about the camera. I've mentioned it several times. I think it could have played a major role in allowing whatever scenario unfold from addressable to unrecoverable. But again, speculation:

First it probably was the cause for deciding to be negative.
Second, it created goals which drove her to make poor solo/extended BT decisions.
Third, task fixation could have caused her to ignore early warning signs.
Fourth, it could have impeded her ability/choice to dump weight (having hands tied up holding it).
Fifth, it could have made swimming up and/or maintaining the surface more difficult (weight and loss of hand movement).

One could have a whole discussion just on the unintended hazards of photography/videography. I believe a camera is the most dangerous piece of equipment a diver can own.

I should probably highlight that this hasnt been discussed at length, though it has been brought up and should be since I know the hazards as a photographer and have thus experienced and shared my potentially fatal experience analogous to Marcias situation sans DS. (It could probably be because not every diver who has posted on this thread knows what its like to carry a camera rig with arms/strobes around on a dive and task load as a photographer apart from what is merely 'imagined' what a photographer goes through on a dive)

I would like to add the sixth; which I had brought up in my post - the chance encounter with a subject to be photographed at the end of the dive. At that stage one assumes that (no matter how experienced) its just going to be a routine and fairly automatic process at shallow depth. But looking into a viewfinder and trying to compose a shot as well as adjusting strobes etc, one could easily forget to check the gauge and you end up cutting it too fine and run out of air. By then your potential for a shallow water BO is imminent? (correct me if Im wrong slamfire)

Might I point out that when I was photographing this subject at the end of my dive in 7-8m of water, my buddy had signalled low on air and had ascended, thinking that Id be fine with my 50 bar at this depth and I would rendevouz at the surface. Conditions were no current, black sand slope shore dive, visibility 15m. So one assumes that all would be good and routine. However had I come to such a problem no one would have been able to help me.

I would need to ask the question of slamfire, are there any pre-conditions to shallow water blackout in terms of signs/symptoms one would need to pay attention to? I mainly remember that my cue to ascend was when I felt a squeeze on me regulator as I was breathing, indicating low on air.. by breathing slowly and in small breaths on ascent I was able to hang at 5m for another minute, then slowly ascended to surface from there without panicking or shooting to the surface. Another safety? factor maybe is that I was on Nitrox 32? Not sure if this had anything to do with O2/CO2 levels compared to had I been on Air.

---------- Post added October 20th, 2013 at 07:47 AM ----------

I don't agree that she just hung out underwater with nothing to breath and then passed out with no warning. Obviously she should have ditched lead when her BC was full, her tank was MT and she was still heavy. Who knows why she didn't? I think it more likely that she tried to kick like hell and reach the surface, possibly reached it, fought like heck to stay there and gasp some breaths, totally fatigued her legs and then sunk back down. Seems more plausible then sitting on the bottom in a statis waiting to pass out.

Consider the medium size camera rig she was carrying. Thats most pobably why she struggled to ditch weight (if the theory is that this was a critical factor).

The camera rig is usually expensive and its a hard reflex to let go of one despite the situation.. And its mostly a 2 handed job to carry it around...Yes its irrational..but it is.. (for most photographers) ...especially more if it carries those rare shots of a critter you wanted to photograph on the dive. The camera is generally slightly negative in itself, looking at Marcias compact setup this would have even been MORE negative with arms and strobes (I didnt see any bouyancy floats on the arms), compared to if she had a large DSLR housing like I use which tends to be less negative.

Add to this carrying a camera to task loading of ditching weights in a DS system she is not as experienced with and one has a broken link in the chain.

And correct me if Im wrong but I think the strobes and arms setup were a generally newer config for Marcia who was previously just carrying a compact in basic housing? Therefore this new 'Rig' itself presented itself as a hazard - she is already faced with trying to deal with a new trim/weight feel, unfamiliar DS and having a not so familiar camera setup which all contributed to compromise her bouyancy and decision making process at the most critical time.

 

[DevonDiver]

I don't agree that she just hung out underwater with nothing to breath and then passed out with no warning. Obviously she should have ditched lead when her BC was full, her tank was MT and she was still heavy. Who knows why she didn't? I think it more likely that she tried to kick like hell and reach the surface, possibly reached it, fought like heck to stay there and gasp some breaths, totally fatigued her legs and then sunk back down. Seems more plausible then sitting on the bottom in a statis waiting to pass out.

I agree with you. It's what I was trying to explain before (long-winded posts) but still failed to convey.

When I said "she didn't acknowledge an emergency, until too late", this describes her lack of appropriate response to the problem - not that she wasn't responding at all.

She was an experienced dive pro. She was confident to deal with problems. Maybe there was also some pride happening. Maybe some denial too. But she was resistant to dropping weights/jettisoning camera etc.. Those were the appropriate responses to an emergency of that severity. Instead, she choose to do something else. Maybe that was to attempt a negative ascent through kicking for the surface. Maybe she tried to swim for the shore, until she could stand up.

She had a finite time to save herself. Dropping weights would have saved her. She knew that. Whatever she did, she did not drop weights during the time she had available.

It is feasible that Marcia's reaction to her emergency was influenced by factors other than the emergency. This is where her experience and comfort worked against her - too little concern, too little fear - until too late. Denial plays a role too - she was an instructor: instructors don't have dramas in shallow water... do they? It is also where pride happens - she was diving with 'less qualified' buddies, had ignored their advice previously... so to have dropped weights, ditched camera etc... would have undeniably illustrated a screw up. She would have had to ask those people to go back out and retrieve her weights/camera etc - a humbling admission.

I'll give you a real-world example, from many years ago, of the same mindset...the same failing:

Imagine an instructor on a dive boat running an open water class. The instructor needs to jump in ahead of their class and do a quick 'bounce' dive to confirm that water conditions on the site are suitable for the training dive. The instructor has been distracted by helping the students kit up and buddy check. They are in a rush due to the boat schedule, so the instructor makes the decision to perform a negative entry - no air in the BCD, sinking straight away to the bottom, check the viz/current and then return immediately to the surface and call the students in. Splash... and descent. Seconds later, at around 6m deep, the instructor feels their regulator tighten up.

A glance at the gauge: zero bar. The cylinder is off - it was forgotten because the instructor was distracted helping their students. The instructor did no buddy check. No drama. The instructor actually considers how embarrassing it would be to kick for the surface now, gasping for air and having to orally inflate... in front of the waiting students..in front of the other dive instructors on the boat. The instructor, still descending rapidly because they are over-weighted with 'spares' for the students, ears hurting, chest compressed by increasing pressure, makes a calm decision. They reach back and fumble for the cylinder valve to turn the cylinder on. The instructor is aching to breathe... but no drama. They are comfortable with that sensation. They aren't going to die. That can't happen to them.

The valve turns. Air rushes. The instructor breathes. They are now at 12m depth. The descent continues, the conditions are confirmed and the instructor surfaces to call in their students. Nobody on the boat is any the wiser. No dramas. No loss of credibility. The instructor wasn't scared - it wasn't any worse than doing their DM kit swap test... or a dozen other issues they've faced before. Except, of course, it was actually very different..it was real, it was unsupported, no aid was coming. The instructor doesn't give it a second thought, it wass just a minor glitch... until later that day it started to seem more serious in hindsight. It's still a hypothetical though, they weren't really at risk of actually dying..no way.. no shakes afterwards...no nightmares. The incident just proved how competent they were to deal with it...of course. That must be it. Must remember to check personal equipment, because it's easy to be distracted when busy with students - lesson learned. Done and dusted. Pat on the back and a sheepish grin. But was the real lesson learned at the time?

You can guess who that happened to. It is a real story. How close did that instructor come to a black out? Who knows?... , but the ache to breath was pretty damned strong. Would that instructor then have had time to ditch weights if they hadn't reached the valve? Maybe, maybe not. They weren't even thinking about it at the time - the incident hadn't gotten 'scary' yet. No adrenal dump. Not scary enough to suffer the embarrassment of hitting the surface, gasping, with no weight belt. Yet, dropping those weights would have been the only way for them to actually ascend, if the cylinder valve hadn't been reached... It was the 'correct' and 'obvious' solution. It was what 'should' have been done... immediately... and with time to spare.

If that valve hadn't been reached, in those few seconds, and a black out had occurred... then the story would have been discussed right here on the Scubaboard Accidents and Incidents forum. The instructor would have been found; tank valve closed, all equipment in place, weight belt untouched, dead on the bottom. Dozens of people would have pondered how an instructor failed to enact the most basic, most obvious, resolution to the emergency. The obvious stuff would be identified: lack of buddy check, solo descent, weighting etc. But the mystery would remain why the weights weren't dropped... or even why the instructor failed to kick up the surface and orally inflate. After all, that's what divers are trained to do. That's what the instructor trained divers to do. People would struggle to comprehend that. They would look for alternative factors and explanations. Maybe medical issues? Maybe the instructor panicked as soon as they couldn't get air?

I wonder, if with serious self-examination, other dive pros or experienced divers might identify similar circumstances where they reacted to an emergency without acknowledging the severity of their situation and whilst considering factors other than the optimum resolution to the problem?

 

[line]

But the mystery would remain why the weights weren't dropped... or even why the instructor failed to kick up the surface and orally inflate. After all, that's what divers are trained to do. That's what the instructor trained divers to do.

First of all, thank you for sharing! And I'd like to focus on the premise that divers are trained to drop weights, which is IMHO a tragic misconception (and hopefully not to much off topic).

Everyone is convinced that divers get taught to ditch weights in an emergency and wonders why so many drowned divers are found with their weights still on when in the analysis following the accident it's clear that releasing weights would have been the solution to prevent desaster.

My personal explanation to this "mystery" is that it happens because divers don't geht taught that ditching weights is a possible solution at all:

• yes, it will be said that releasing weights is important under certain circumstances and
• yes, divers have to show that they can ditch weights.

But what you really get taught is, that bolting up to the surface is the worst thing you can do - ever! period! You (or at least I) got taught that this will inevitably cause serious physical problems which probably will lead to your death. You (and again that means I) got taught that problems, that occur under water have to be solved under water - no matter what. And these two things you hear over and over again. And whenever some student in a class shows signs to go up to the surface as a reaction to a problem, s/he will get hammered into her/his head that THIS is not an option!

So - for me - it's no wonder, that ditching weights for an average diver (like me) is nothing that comes into your mind when confronted with a problem.

And moreover, even instructors should have a more differentiated view on this, they too have the problem that releasing weights (maybe?!) is more or less just an exercise in your course, but not the first solution to a possible problem that you teach on a regular basis.

If this consideration is'nt completly far fetched, than it's no wonder why releasing weights is'nt a part of an average divers problem solving abilities. Then dropping weights is more or less a theoretical concept. Simplified there's only one "real" scenario where it's ok to release weights and that is if you have a diver already at the surfice and want to keep him or her positivly boyant.

Reading this thread and thinking about what I would have done in a situation like this, I for example realized that I never ditched weights after my OWD (although I practice basic scuba skills on a more or less regular basis) and it never occured to me that there could be a problem with releasing integrated weights (until I read a posting in this thread stating that exactly this happened when tried). Well, I did so yesterday and am quite relieved that it works, I can release my integrated weights (and put them on again and everything is ok so far) - but still, I have to remember that there are certain szenarios where ditching weights is not only ok, but one thing you really do!

 

[brnt999]

There has been a spate of fatalities over the last couple of months and the majority of them involved experienced and trained divers.The divers knew the right way to dive but choose not to follow their training. If Quero was following her training, if she was diving smart, would she even have started the dive in the first place? I work for an engineering firm in the construction industry and I see first hand how construction companies have comprehensive saftey plans. Their workers have daily tool box meetings, they have weekly more detailed saftey meetings, the workers are required to take various specialty courses, and they have saftey officers regularly visiting the construction sites. Yet regularly I see the same workers doing unsafe things--not following their training. They break the rules mainly because to do the right thing is a pain in the arse. It might take twice as long to do a task the right way as opposed to an unsafe way. Thats human nature and you are never going to change that. I guess divers have to make a choice--do they dive smart, follow their training, do the right thing----or not.