Scary dives in Coz last week

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coppermaus

Thanks a lot for posting this. I am getting ready for a trip in three weeks and this really sobered me up to not just be prepping for the "fun stuff" but also really got me rethinking all of the safety related items I can think of. It really drives home the importance of pre-communication/planning and after action review with your buddy which is one area I think I needed a reminder like this.

Thanks again,

Dan
 
There is abit of confusion regarding what a DiveMaster is responsible for.

I will present to you some information so you can not be afraid to dive in Cozumel. You will prepare better because you will realize that their are limitations to the responsibility of the DiveOp and the DiveMaster. And you will be careful to dive as if you were diving independently, because that is what you are certified to do, in the conditions and depths to which you were trained.

In the traditional form, a DiveMaster is usually on the boat, not in the water.

The DM is in charge of doing a weather check and site survey, arranging the boat and equipment, briefing divers once at the site, making sure divers get properly off and most importantly, back on the boat, and to organize a rescue if that is unfortunately required. The boat Captain is master of the ship and not responsible for DM'ing. Many boats are now bareback charters and you can compare the boat to be water taxiis with no other responsibility.

But it has become common in resort areas to have an in-water dive guide to have a local experienced divers in the water, for obvious practical reasons, to show visitors the way, to head off problems, and to point out areas of interest and allow the dive to be that much more enjoyable = happy divers.
However, there is no write up on what a dive guide's responsibilities are. They certainly are not responsible for managing each individual diver's dive.

The DM has a duty of care to the divers, but it is not what you may think, because you may have only been exposed to dive guides. Watch out, you are still responsible for being a thinking, conservative, responsible diver!

The DM's main responsibility, quoting the PADI DiveMaster manual Page 17 is to "generate a broad dive plan that individual divers plan their own dives within, to prepare for reasonably foreseeable emergencies, and to orient divers to the site". The emphasis is that they do not take the place of the buddy system for certified divers.

NAUI Leadership text Page 114 adds "Given the range of diving variables, not the least of which is the divers themselves", dive guides cannot assume the role of personal safety guardian or lifeguard".

Now, back to coppermaus' story. The Devil's Throat is an advanced dive site. It may be, the DM figured, hey, these people must be Advanced to be going here. Or, the DiveOp already screened them so hey, let's get in the water. Hence the "see you at 130 feet" briefing. I say of course, he didn't verify everyone's experience level (check cards and log books), didn't make sure everyone had done a dive plan, and specifically, didin't allow for a probably bigger novice, using more air than required.

Often, a dive guide will position themselves at the maximum planned depth, so as to make sure they are between the group and deeper water.

According to the NAUI Leadership text Page 120 "guides have a responsibility to the whole group that supersedes jeopardizing themselves (in chasing a diver who descends deeper than the planned maximum depth".

For those of you who have done a Rescue Diver or First Aid course, you know that a rescuer is not required, and is actually warned, not to compromise their personal safety to attempt to assist another diver (don't create another victim).

According to coppermaus, the DM took the whole group down to 160 feet. This would be a good point in proving some responsibility on the part of the dive guide in case things had turned out worse. However, it would be hard to prove given the DM's broken dive guage, assuming it was found to be so.

The DiveOp might be questioned as to why they allowed a relatively novice diver (the buddy) to go to the site. At least one of the divers had the necessary experience.

Since the buddy pair shared a computer, did not do a proper dive plan, and seperated themselves on their own initiative, then they would have a hard time absolving themselves from responsibility.

Please go reread your dive manual. Having a DM check your equipment after you have assembled it, check your dive plan after you have planned it, and draw a quick sketch of the dive site, are good things to do. NEVER feel embarrassed about asking for help from the DM such as "please check my NDL and air consumption calculations, or please tell me again exactly where are we going to go, how many tunnels, what if we get seperated from the group?". Rather than showing you are a novice diver, you are showing that you are a smart diver, and the DM will be quick to realize you are a safe diver. They are paid to assist you, not nursemaid you. You can bet they will step in to help you if you have any problems underwater, to the best of their ability. BUT, you should do a full buddy check (BWRAF) and make sure you stay within one or two arms length of your buddy during the whole dive.
 
I have always said that Cozumel is a dive destination for experienced divers not novices. I have been going to Coz since 1978. The dm's make the dive often so they are relaxed and know their limits. Devils Throat is an advanced dive if you add swift current then you really need to be on your toes. I have heard many divers say when they get certified they are going to Coz. I always cringe. It is one of the most thrilling places to dive but again it is not a novice dive destination. I am glad you and your buddy came out of it ok and got to see some big stuff on your way back.
 
Thanks for sharing that with us. Next Monday at this time I will be on a charter boat on a reef at Coz. As has been said here it is a great reminder to plan ahead and communicate before getting into the water.

One item that has not been mentioned is that no operator should be taking an OW diver with less than 20 dives down below 100 ft. 60 FT is the standard but under ideal conditions I don't have an issue with 80-90 ft but you will get narked deeper than that, and they will not be prepared for it. Also the DMs should have know by then that your buddy was hard on air and tha also should have disqualified him to go to 130 FT.

This operator has serious problems!

PS I think you handled the in water portion quite well.

Good Luck Next Time.
Gary
 
crispos,

You are correct in the duties of a DM.

OTOH, this guy wasn't acting as a DM, he was acting as a dive guide. He told the group to follow him, then promptly screwed up. There's no excuse for this. I agree properly trained divers wouldn't blindly follow him, but the vast majority of divers today aren't properly trained. In fact, they are led to believe they should follow the guide. They've been led to believe a DM's job is to be a guide.

"the DM took the whole group down to 160 feet. This would be a good point in proving some responsibility on the part of the dive guide in case things had turned out worse. However, it would be hard to prove given the DM's broken dive guage, assuming it was found to be so."

It's hard to believe any experienced diver can swim down 40 feet in an attempt to reach the planned depth and think he hasn't gone any deeper.

"The DiveOp might be questioned as to why they allowed a relatively novice diver (the buddy) to go to the site. At least one of the divers had the necessary experience."

I'll agree with the first part, not the second. It had been over 4 year since she'd been in the ocean with less than 60 dives total. She wasn't close to being ready for that dive.

"Since the buddy pair shared a computer, did not do a proper dive plan, and seperated themselves on their own initiative, then they would have a hard time absolving themselves from responsibility."

What report did you read. She used her buddy's computer for an immediate ascent after pulling him up from going way deeper than planned. She planned her dive on tables. She blew the plan to rescue her buddy. I agree the plan was a poor one, but it was a plan. It was also heavily influnced by their dive guide as part of the plan was to follow him as instructed.

"They are paid to assist you, not nursemaid you."

Unfortunately, most divers today need a nursemaid and most DM's in Cozumel and similar locations assume that role.

goofygirl,

I don't know how Cozumel got a reputation as a good location for new divers. It's a great dive destination, but it's an advanced destination.
 
parrotheaddiver:
I have always said that Cozumel is a dive destination for experienced divers not novices.

I could not agree more, Parrot. But, having said that (and at the risk of sounding daft), I have been to Cozumel twice and done 11 dives there, but none of them have been to Devil's Throat. What is the big attraction to Devil's Throat? Is there anything in particular to see down there that you can't see at, say, 80 feet? I love going into swim-throughs, but there are plenty of them above 100 feet. I've been down to 114 feet there before, but it wasn't in a tunnel.

BTW, Coppermaus -- I'm glad you made it back to the boat OK. I know you feel responsible about your dive buddy, but tell me something...was he excited about going with you, or did you have to twist his arm to go? You had already said in your intro that he does not share the same passion for diving that you (and the majority of us) do. There is little question in my mind that when he was mindlessly following the dive guide rather than you, he was really narcked (they probably were both quite narcked, for that matter). Hope you have better luck the next time you go.
 
[QUOTE}

"They are paid to assist you, not nursemaid you."

Unfortunately, most divers today need a nursemaid and most DM's in Cozumel and similar locations assume that role.

I don't know how Cozumel got a reputation as a good location for new divers. It's a great dive destination, but it's an advanced destination.[/QUOTE]



I agree, THANK YOU!
 
Walter, your points are well taken.

It's a lesson to be learned and unfortunately these dive "incidents" are not so uncommon and I for one, want to make them much less common. I am taking a devil's advocate position, to reemphasize a couple of points. Also, what you say has to be proven in a court. I might add, that some jurisdiction, you wouldn't get a fair hearing. I think coppermaus did very well. But she neglected some areas which she said she is now very well aware of. Nuff said.

By the way coppermaus, what I wanted to say about the NDL check was, you weren't sure of the emergency decompression rules on the PADI tables: 8 minutes at 15 feet plus no more diving for six hours.

For your information, the difference in NDL between 160 feet and 130 feet isn't that great. The key thing is to do the slow ascent and the extended stops. US Navy Diving Tables allow 10 minutes at 160 feet with a 1 minute stop at 10 feet but those tables are for military divers. Always err on being slower and waiting longer at 15 feet.

Why should you have had your own computer? Because 1) your profiles can be different (as they were) and 2) you might get seperated (as you did) and 3) it has alarms to warn you personally of fast ascents and 4) the repetitive dive sequence may be different (if you switch buddies). Finally, as you found out, trying to remember tables in a stressful, task loaded situation is not going to happen. So your computer is your safety net, thinking out a decompression sequence when you cannot.

As to Cozumel being appropriate for novices, I am not going to be put in the position of recommending dive sites to people I have never met. Let them get on the Internet, find good dive operators, and remember what they were taught about exceeding their experience levels. If they choose, they has the option of actually hiring a DM or Instructor as a supervising guide ala Discover Scuba. Palancar Gardens is a nice shallow spot for that. Two of my Open Water checkout students went with Palancar Divers in early January and had a fabulous time, because obviously the guide was

Damn, I missed my pool session writing this.
 
"unfortunately these dive "incidents" are not so uncommon and I for one, want to make them much less common."

I agree 100%. Training needs improving.
 
goofygirl:
My husband and I are both newbies. This will only be our second dive trip. we've only got about 10 dives each under our belts. We also happen to be going to Coz in April, this is a VERY scary story for us!!!

I made my husband read this thread and we got into a very serious discussion about how we have to strive to be better buddies and communicate better underwater, and only dive to the limits of our abilities.
Sorry to have scared you so much, but then maybe it's a really good thing for you to have heard this and for your and your buddy to have this opportunity to talk about everything beforehand. Things would have been a lot different for me and my buddy had we been able to read this thread by someone else before going.

There are a lot of good replies and excellent advice coming out of this for newer divers like you and your buddy and for anyone about to do their first trip to Coz, since it's different from anything most of us have done before, with the DM and the drift diving. It's easy to start thinking the DM is in charge of your dive. He's not. It all starts to feel like you're totally being taken care of. You're not. No matter what dive op you're going with (unless that's what you ask for).

Whatever op you go with, spend time talking with them about your concerns. Any good shop will listen to you. The dive op we went with listened to ours, which were - before we went - very different from what they were afterwards. I was more concerned about getting to all the locations I'd heard about and being put with experienced divers rather than people who'd slow us down! Ha! Pretty funny in hindsight, ain't it?

Be honest with them about your concerns, your experience and your limitations. Like a relationship with your doctor or hairstylist, your dive op should listen to you and honor your concerns. If they don't seem to be, walk on. But remember if you go in saying SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY, they might put you with their best nursemaid. And you should be taking care of yourselves within the context of the dives they take you on.

You and your husband are smart to have some fear. My buddy being SOOO unruffled by 162' and running out of air was seriously worrisome for me. That should have bothered him a lot! And as correctly crispos pointed out, I'm in that dangerous adolescent phase between AOW-hood and DM-hood and figured I didn't need to be so attentive to every detail before going in. BAD BAD wicked NAUGHTY Zoot. Since this scares you, and you two took the time to have an honest discussion about it, you're already in better shape than we were.

Take care, have fun.
 
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