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Scary bad Advanced diver.

Discussion in 'Going Pro' started by Frosty, Feb 9, 2016.

  1. scubadiver888

    scubadiver888 Divemaster

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: North America
    1,501
    266
    83
    If it is a PADI shop there is no way PADI would have issued an AOW card without Deep. From the Instructor Manual:

    For Advanced Open Water Diver, student divers meet performance requirements:
    • Complete five Adventure Dives including Deep and Underwater Navigation.
    • Complete the five Knowledge Reviews for the completed Adventure Dives.​

    If an instructor submits paperwork to PADI without Deep and Nav, PADI will not issue a AOW certification. They would get there Adventure Diver but not there Advanced Open Water.
     
  2. tursiops

    tursiops Marine Scientist and Master Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: U.S. East Coast
    7,660
    5,212
    113
    Unfortunately, there is nothing in the paperwork sent to PADI that says what the five dives were. PADI depends on the integrity and honesty of the instructor. The only check on the system is the occasional survey sent to students and reports of cheating by students and observers.
     
  3. Frosty

    Frosty Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Auckland NZ
    1,264
    423
    83
    Just to close the door on this story. Decision was made to accompany the diver on the dives which turned out to be a total non event.
    I set up their gear and stayed with them during the dives but it went well other than them chugging through air at a fair rate of knots.
     
    Mia Toose, kr2y5 and Seya like this.
  4. lermontov

    lermontov Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: christchurch
    746
    308
    63
    I hear your frustration orange-
    Im not an instructor but i am observant and had a lot of life experience, Theres a skill in identifying those who want to be looked after and spoon fed and those who want to progress and be self sufficient, its a case of accepting that people have different end goals and not trying to drag them to the same place as ourselves. Im pretty passionate about the sports that i indulge in and I want others to fully embrace them and take the sport to a high level of ability, reality is others want to dabble or just have fun when they go on vacation. The problem I encounter often is when you have a charter or group dive and instabuddys - you get a large range of abilities all trying to take the dive in their own direction or skill level ultimately ending in one or both divers feeling somewhat dissatisfied

    Its patently obvious that the glossy advertising magazines and flyers sell scuba as an easy sport to enter and they have achieved that to a large degree. The downside is evident by the threads we are now reading and the increasing pressure on dive instructors who are having to deal with the stress of taking them (who have not progressed) on dives they have doubts about their ability to complete safely.
    On top of that you have the pressure of trying to run a dive shop and surviving the financial issues that that entails so in an ideal world you can say 'sorry I wont take you on that dive but I will take you here' (for example) or a simple 'No your not ready' that would help but we know thats not how the real world works. Operators dont/wont turn away work.

    Some dive shops have a longer view of the situation- by gaining trust and confidence an inspiring the customer they can hopefully take them to the next progression - which may mean more courses, more gear, regular clientele, word of mouth advertising. (and in this ideal world it'd be 40m vis- calm warm water - sunny days lol)
    I think if I recall dives should have a debrief post dive. This would be hugely beneficial for new divers ( myself included) but I have never sat down after a dive and had this discussion with dive instructor. In fact after a I have done a course I have asked the instructor what things i need to work on and hell tell me- so guess what ill be practicing next time i go out!

    I have been mulling an idea to help - make all divers probationary for one year or 100 dives with global organisations like PADI TDI and computers it would be easy to record their progress : after every dive a simple entry on a database on probationary diver with the client also able to see it - would be simple for the DM to write a short memo e.g. had trouble with buoyancy or needs to work on finning techniques or similar even some tick boxes as to water temp, tidal, boat dive, shore dive etc that would enable the next operator to access the divers info and make a better judgement call,
    just a thought?
     
  5. gcarter

    gcarter Orca

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Ottawa, Canada
    8,418
    9,031
    113
    A bad thought. Be careful what you wish for.

    Please keep in mind that our training results in certifications, not licenses.
     
    DustyC likes this.
  6. TMHeimer

    TMHeimer Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dartmouth,NS,Canada(Eastern Passage-Atlantic)
    11,979
    2,525
    113
    Am not totally following the probationary period idea. An instructor or DM is going to dive with the probie for a year or 100 dives and evaluate each dive? You can't mean that for any number of practical reasons, starting with who's going to pay these supervisors? I'm not crazy about any sort of probationary period, though it obviously would improve divers' abilities and make charters easier on the crew. I also don't like the "graduated" drivers license for new drivers that a lot of states and provinces brought in many years ago. I'm more in favour of individual divers/drivers taking responsibility for their own skills.
     
  7. lermontov

    lermontov Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: christchurch
    746
    308
    63
    further from Jim lapentas post - was an idea to help instructor to asses divers experience before the dive i.e. refer to log book or database any instructor/dive operator could comment whenever they dive with an organised group doesn't have to be same instructor for 100 dives - correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the c card a sort of 'restrictive licence' already? e.g. ask a LDS to take you in cave and you produce OW card- wont (shouldn't) happen, isn't that the purpose of log book and c card to assess divers suitability for a particular trip? if your in teaching position then teach, exhort encourage and inspire -if you dont care about the dive standards and just want the money then status quo

    I agree with you I'm in favour of divers taking responsibility for themselves but reread the previous comments particular Jim lapenta's, tursiops etc - this simply isn't hapening or not to the degree wed like
     
  8. kafkaland

    kafkaland Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Saline, Michigan
    517
    393
    63
    I'm wondering if some of the resort diving course operators shouldn't issue scuba diver certs instead of OW certs. That's the level many of their graduates operate at, and in many cases, that's all they want to do: dive under the supervision of a professional.
     
  9. kr2y5

    kr2y5 Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Seattle
    929
    267
    63
    Is it possible that this person wasn't a terrible diver, and just had a bad day? I also sometimes have a day, when things are literally falling out of my hands, due to prolonged stress combined with not enough rest, and on such days, things tend to happen in clusters. At one point, also with >100 dives under my belt, I had a dive, on which all my skills seemed to have melted down. I was late, I slipped on the boat, I dropped a piece of gear into the water, I have assembled my backplate without putting a wing behind, I almost forgot my weights, etc. It wasn't just being new to equipment, but also being in a mental state, in which I just shouldn't have been diving, that I hadn't learned to recognize yet. I think when one dives only during vacation in places where it's very easy, and treats it as a way to vent, one might never really have the chance to develop the "today is not a good day to dive" reflex. If that's the case, slowing down and focusing on emotions as the underlying problem, rather than on skills as a symptom, might be the way to go. Just my 3 cents.
     
  10. TMHeimer

    TMHeimer Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dartmouth,NS,Canada(Eastern Passage-Atlantic)
    11,979
    2,525
    113
    I can't think of a time I really disagreed with either of those guys. And I agree with everything you said as well. But the way I read your last paragraph is that somehow a pro will be able to make comments somewhere (electronically, on paper?) about some new diver's first year's worth of dives or first 100. If you're talking about continuing ed. courses, yes, something like this probationary period may work somewhat. But there is no way for someone to drive 100 miles round trip to the Eastern Shore of Nova Scotia to monitor my first 100 dives-- and get paid. Maybe I would never take another course anyway? But yeah, your idea may have some merit when applied to courses.
    As far as an OW cert. card--as with other cards-- these are not restrictive licenses. They are merely certifications. There is a "recommended" depth for an OW certification of 60 feet. Whether the diver does that or is allowed to go deeper or not by a dive boat op. is entirely up to the people involved. That's a whole other topic, including the "log book" debate, signatures, countable dives, how easy it is to fake one, etc.
    Jim L. frequently points out the inefficiencies of many OW programs, and with good reason. But you can't have pros keeping track of every diver on probation for a year unless that diver signs up for another course. How would it work--financially and practically? Many people just shore dive and don't frequently go on dive vacations, with organized groups or not. If they decide to out of the blue, who will assess them before they step onto a boat in the tropics? They'll have to take a refresher course at their home LDS first and get something in writing stating their abilities? Would that apply to someone with 99 dives who has dived weekly since the get go-- and perhaps is even finishing up the DM course? Another often discussed topic comes to mind--that old "charter boats requiring a checkout dive"-- in shallow water to assess each customer (unless the person has a very advanced card).
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2016

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