Save me from myself (Too "safe"?)
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Pardon me, since I didn't read every post thoroughly, but I have a question. I've never dived lava tubes, though I've explored some dry land versions of them. I'm going to take a wild guess that, at 24 dives, you and your son aren't cavern/cave certified. In practical terms, when is a lava tube not a cave? It is at the very least an extended overhead environment, is it not? How will you and your son deal with an emergency in this environment?
Thanks everyone. Internet boards are an interesting place and as much as we try to communicate clearly, we end up failing in some way. I owe some of you further explanation. Thanks again.
I did not list what I carry currently, but maybe it will shed some light. My son and I two-fer everything, We look like twins underwater except I am 5'7" 150 and he is 5'11 170.
HOG BP/W 32 lb wing (Thanks Jim)
AquaLung Legends and Safe Seconds, necklace for safe 2nd (picture below was before we got our own BP/W and necklace)
Oceanic ProPlus 2.1 ( I like the big display)
I also have a Citizen dive watch as a backup for time/temp, depth, accent rate
Bares NexGen drysuit
I purchased the HOG because I grew up with Legos. I like the flexibility, comfort, lack of crap on it. While I don't yet practice DUI, I want to know my gear, where it is how it works and then just enjoy the dive.
I don't think we exceeded our training, but here is a picture of the type of diving we did one day.
Behind me it is open, above me is open, in front of me is open. You can see my son entering the gap (about 15 feet long) to get to the other side. If this looks like a "no no" please let me know.
Agreed!. The fun is underwater with my son. It is just an indescribable feeling.
Going back to my professional life, in HAZMAT training, the entry team always has an equal number of back-up in case they need rescue, but do not place their own lives at risk. I am always asked by new students " Who is the backup for the backup then?" My response is "good planning" on the front end. I think it applies here too.
I think many post like this one sometimes are just looking for validation of their own decisions made before they even post. I try to remind myself of that when I look in the mirror.
Al least until my son and I get more dives, more training (rescue being one of them), and absolute blind comfort with our gear I think this will be my list:
- Cutting device (always)
- SMB (always)
- Slate/notes (only if we are going somewhere where we want to talk about what we are seeing. Otherwise just enjoy the dive. Practice hand signals
-Spare Air/Pony - Nope. We will focus on proper dive planning, sticking with the plan and keep practicing techniques to help ones self and each other
- Spare light - only when conditions warrant (low vis, night)
- Snorkel - I'd like to get a roll-up and get the thing off my mask, no spare. We were required to have it during classes and have just kept it in place.
I'm off to practice dive planning for some time in Puget Sound tomorrow.
I did not list what I carry currently, but maybe it will shed some light. My son and I two-fer everything, We look like twins underwater except I am 5'7" 150 and he is 5'11 170.
HOG BP/W 32 lb wing (Thanks Jim)
AquaLung Legends and Safe Seconds, necklace for safe 2nd (picture below was before we got our own BP/W and necklace)
Oceanic ProPlus 2.1 ( I like the big display)
I also have a Citizen dive watch as a backup for time/temp, depth, accent rate
Bares NexGen drysuit
I purchased the HOG because I grew up with Legos. I like the flexibility, comfort, lack of crap on it. While I don't yet practice DUI, I want to know my gear, where it is how it works and then just enjoy the dive.
I don't think we exceeded our training, but here is a picture of the type of diving we did one day.
Behind me it is open, above me is open, in front of me is open. You can see my son entering the gap (about 15 feet long) to get to the other side. If this looks like a "no no" please let me know.
Agreed!. The fun is underwater with my son. It is just an indescribable feeling.
Agreed
Going back to my professional life, in HAZMAT training, the entry team always has an equal number of back-up in case they need rescue, but do not place their own lives at risk. I am always asked by new students " Who is the backup for the backup then?" My response is "good planning" on the front end. I think it applies here too.
I think many post like this one sometimes are just looking for validation of their own decisions made before they even post. I try to remind myself of that when I look in the mirror.
Al least until my son and I get more dives, more training (rescue being one of them), and absolute blind comfort with our gear I think this will be my list:
- Cutting device (always)
- SMB (always)
- Slate/notes (only if we are going somewhere where we want to talk about what we are seeing. Otherwise just enjoy the dive. Practice hand signals
-Spare Air/Pony - Nope. We will focus on proper dive planning, sticking with the plan and keep practicing techniques to help ones self and each other
- Spare light - only when conditions warrant (low vis, night)
- Snorkel - I'd like to get a roll-up and get the thing off my mask, no spare. We were required to have it during classes and have just kept it in place.
I'm off to practice dive planning for some time in Puget Sound tomorrow.
CptTightPants21
Contributor
The lava tubes look fine.
Slates and wetnotes are so useful and you really should dive with at least a wrist slate. Not everything can be explained or communicated through hand signals. Notes about the dive, changes in dive plan, corrections for drills, the list is endless about things that can be communicated on a slate, but not with hand signals. Just a few examples that I can remember.
1. Did a lot of drills at depth at the trolley @ Dutch. I was on a single tank with ~1200 and buddy had doubles on. So enough air to see another attraction and take a leisure swim. We had only dive planned for drills at the trolley, I took out the slate, wrote down 3 options, with option 3 being "return to dock", he picked option 2 and we saw a few more sights on a leisurely way back with me breathing off his doubles when I hit 500psi
2. Was exploring the back wall at Dutch. Wasn't really sure where I was, wrote on slate. "I am lost. Swim 2-3 minutes more, then head back with compass". Simple update on the dive.
Having a hand signal for being lost on a dive is easy, but adapt the dive plan and communicate it with your buddy requires a slate
Slates and wetnotes are so useful and you really should dive with at least a wrist slate. Not everything can be explained or communicated through hand signals. Notes about the dive, changes in dive plan, corrections for drills, the list is endless about things that can be communicated on a slate, but not with hand signals. Just a few examples that I can remember.
1. Did a lot of drills at depth at the trolley @ Dutch. I was on a single tank with ~1200 and buddy had doubles on. So enough air to see another attraction and take a leisure swim. We had only dive planned for drills at the trolley, I took out the slate, wrote down 3 options, with option 3 being "return to dock", he picked option 2 and we saw a few more sights on a leisurely way back with me breathing off his doubles when I hit 500psi
2. Was exploring the back wall at Dutch. Wasn't really sure where I was, wrote on slate. "I am lost. Swim 2-3 minutes more, then head back with compass". Simple update on the dive.
Having a hand signal for being lost on a dive is easy, but adapt the dive plan and communicate it with your buddy requires a slate
USFpsychDiver
Contributor
As several people have mentioned, it isn't the hardware, it's the software (in this case the diver's mind). It was my daughter that got me started diving, but she lives in Oregon where the water is cold and I live in Florida where the water is warm, so I've got a lot more experience and training than she does. By far the most important things I've done for our safety is getting training and experience. I've taken both Rescue and technical training (in my case Cave). Because of that training and experience I feel very comfortable in the water and able to deal with problems as they arise, for me or my buddy (daughter). All the gear in the world won't save me if I'm not thinking calmly and clearly. If I am thinking calmly and clearly and have my minimalist gear properly configured (balanced, minimal lead), on an open water no deco daylight recreational depth dive I know I can make it to the surface as long as I'm not entangled. Then I just need to make sure the boat can find me. So cutting and signaling devices (two of each -- redundancy) and nothing else; add 2 - 3 lights on a night dive. More stuff in the overhead, of course, but the same principles: nothing I don't absolutely need for the dive, at least two and usually more of everything I do need.
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As others have said, kudos for the mentality! Particularly the thing about training to keep your basic skills current; there are too many divers who have long forgotten how to do the things they were supposed to master when they certified OW. I like to joke that my wife would be seriously p!ssed off if I went and killed myself diving, and I absolutely won't have her in that mind 
I have an aphorism I often like to quote about SCUBA diving: "SCUBA diving is quite safe - as long as you remember that it can kill you!" Check the fatality rate for SCUBA, it's quite acceptable compared to quite a few other outdoor activities. IMO, the mentality makes the difference. As long as you remember that it can kill you, and take appropriate measures, you and your son are probably going to be just fine.
Now for your list and my opinion on those items:
SMB - I carry one on every OW dive. It's very nice to shoot one if you're surfacing a bit away from the boat, or if you're a bit late surfacing ("hey, we're a bit later than we told you, but we're OK!"), or if you need just that extra help keeping your depth during the safety stop, or just because it's nice to have something to do during your safety stop (unless you practice air drills, or mask drills, or some other OW skill which is good to remember). Fits just fine in my left thigh pocket.
Slate - Very nice to have for al kinds of communication that's more advanced than the basic hand signals. If you don't have pocket space and don't want it dangling from your rig, consider a wrist slate. I have one of those and love it. Just make sure to get one that uses bungee cord instead of O-rings and velcro straps.
Spare mask/snorkel -I don't wear a snorkel (I use a long hose config and think a snorkel is a hassle if I need to share air. Besides, I've lost two so far...), but I always carry one in my thigh pocket. Nice for surface swims and a nice backup in case I'm OOA on the surface and there's a bit of chop. I don't carry a spare mask, though. I can keep my eyes open even without a mask, and I believe I'll be able to surface without a mask (I don't do tec).
Spare Air/Pony - Good gas planning (i.e. rock bottom/min gas), regular checks on your SPG and a good buddy? Not necessary IMO. Dive a good multilevel profile, and you won't have to surface with half your tank unused even if your max depth was some 30m/100ft.
Spare light - Always. It's not necessary on daytime dives, it's mandatory on night dives. I always carry a light, for many reasons, and I always carry my backup light because I like to dive the same config every time. I have mine fastened to my harness, GUE style, my son keeps his in his BCD pocket. No hassle at all.
---------- Post added November 8th, 2014 at 08:54 PM ----------
Sounds like a good plan! Personally, I stay the heck out of anything that even smacks of overhead environments, but that's me. I feel unsafe unless I have clear water all the way to the surface.
---------- Post added November 8th, 2014 at 09:03 PM ----------
I'll grant you that I have a problem signaling "4", "3" is ambiguous, and the pinkie "deco" is out of the question, but which other signals are difficult to give with heavy gloves?
It's a serious question, because I always dive with heavy gloves and haven't had much problems giving the standard signals, even wearing 3-fingers.
I have an aphorism I often like to quote about SCUBA diving: "SCUBA diving is quite safe - as long as you remember that it can kill you!" Check the fatality rate for SCUBA, it's quite acceptable compared to quite a few other outdoor activities. IMO, the mentality makes the difference. As long as you remember that it can kill you, and take appropriate measures, you and your son are probably going to be just fine.Now for your list and my opinion on those items:
SMB - I carry one on every OW dive. It's very nice to shoot one if you're surfacing a bit away from the boat, or if you're a bit late surfacing ("hey, we're a bit later than we told you, but we're OK!"), or if you need just that extra help keeping your depth during the safety stop, or just because it's nice to have something to do during your safety stop (unless you practice air drills, or mask drills, or some other OW skill which is good to remember). Fits just fine in my left thigh pocket.
Slate - Very nice to have for al kinds of communication that's more advanced than the basic hand signals. If you don't have pocket space and don't want it dangling from your rig, consider a wrist slate. I have one of those and love it. Just make sure to get one that uses bungee cord instead of O-rings and velcro straps.
Spare mask/snorkel -I don't wear a snorkel (I use a long hose config and think a snorkel is a hassle if I need to share air. Besides, I've lost two so far...), but I always carry one in my thigh pocket. Nice for surface swims and a nice backup in case I'm OOA on the surface and there's a bit of chop. I don't carry a spare mask, though. I can keep my eyes open even without a mask, and I believe I'll be able to surface without a mask (I don't do tec).
Spare Air/Pony - Good gas planning (i.e. rock bottom/min gas), regular checks on your SPG and a good buddy? Not necessary IMO. Dive a good multilevel profile, and you won't have to surface with half your tank unused even if your max depth was some 30m/100ft.
Spare light - Always. It's not necessary on daytime dives, it's mandatory on night dives. I always carry a light, for many reasons, and I always carry my backup light because I like to dive the same config every time. I have mine fastened to my harness, GUE style, my son keeps his in his BCD pocket. No hassle at all.
---------- Post added November 8th, 2014 at 08:54 PM ----------
Sounds like a good plan! Personally, I stay the heck out of anything that even smacks of overhead environments, but that's me. I feel unsafe unless I have clear water all the way to the surface.
---------- Post added November 8th, 2014 at 09:03 PM ----------
Which?
I'll grant you that I have a problem signaling "4", "3" is ambiguous, and the pinkie "deco" is out of the question, but which other signals are difficult to give with heavy gloves?
It's a serious question, because I always dive with heavy gloves and haven't had much problems giving the standard signals, even wearing 3-fingers.
diver 85
Contributor
" Most, if not all of our diving for the next few years will be in groups and probably 50% of those dives will be vacation dives with guides"...........OP, 1 piece of advice, don't ever "go dive" the Flower Gardens(some might consider it 'vacation dives'---esp if you happen to fly in for the 'blessed event'...)---?until some of your above diving philosophy changes.......All the dives are unguided with NO DM in the water for your dives---it's you & your buddy all alone--------125 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico----a LONG way from 'help'........& you better believe you better have your SMB with you---if you miss the tag/training boat line, some surface floats could be up to 45 minutes in duration(can I say in ruff seas many times???).......Remember, this isn't rocket surgery you're preforming 'out there'-------again common sense goes a LONG way, your training hopefully always will kick in----too.........
)---?until some of your above diving philosophy changes.......All the dives are unguided with NO DM in the water for your dives---it's you & your buddy all alone--------125 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico----a LONG way from 'help'........& you better believe you better have your SMB with you---if you miss the tag/training boat line, some surface floats could be up to 45 minutes in duration(can I say in ruff seas many times???).......Remember, this isn't rocket surgery you're preforming 'out there'-------again common sense goes a LONG way, your training hopefully always will kick in----too.........Bigd2722
Contributor
[ My preferred one is the 36 inch HOG one I sell with a 100 ft spool or small reel.
[/QUOTE]
All my diving is ocean diving in various conditions. Unless conditions are benign, a 3' smb is not enough
[/QUOTE]
All my diving is ocean diving in various conditions. Unless conditions are benign, a 3' smb is not enough
It is for shooting from depth. Then once I'm on the surface I can deploy the big one. The little one is just for surfacing. At depth, depending on what's going on, the 6 ft sausage can be a pain in the butt for those new to shooting one. I've seen divers get a little over tasked doing it. But the small one I have my 8 yr old snorkeling students deploy in the pool from 10 ft. For inland stuff it is all I need. For ocean dives yeah, I'd want my 6ft DAN sausage or similar to use for signaling. The bigger the better.
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