Santi 400g or DUI 450 Flex?

[Rainer]

Have you had the unfortune of flooding both the Extreme+ and the 400g? Any difference in warmth when flooded? Thanks.

My weezle requires massive amounts of gas (and lead). I've used DUI 400gm thinsulate in the past and wasn't warm enough. Adding more gas to the 400gm didn't make it any warmer because it was already maximally lofted. The weezle has alot more loft, whether or not you utilize it is up to the user. The Extreme+ is the warmest undergarment I've found/used.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My weezle requires massive amounts of gas (and lead). I've used DUI 400gm thinsulate in the past and wasn't warm enough. Adding more gas to the 400gm didn't make it any warmer because it was already maximally lofted. The weezle has alot more loft, whether or not you utilize it is up to the user. The Extreme+ is the warmest undergarment I've found/used.

The Extreme+ has quite a bit more loft than the Extreme. One thing I've had plenty of opportunity to test out is how well these gaments insulate when wet ... pretty darn well, actually. I can tell that I'm wet, with the minor discomfort that being wet entails ... but a reduction in insulating capacity hasn't been a significant issue, even on long'ish dives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HenrikBP]

Yes, loft = heat retention ... but that works both ways. When you need less heat retention, having a suit that's more compressible gives you a better ability to use less loft ... and thus less weight

Thanks Bob, that was the missing bit of info that I hadn't considered. A suit with a bigger range from fully compressed to fully "lofted" will allow better "tailoring" of warmth vs. lead needed.

There is little to no compression in the Arctic undies, it being a fairly dense fleece, so they pretty much always need the lead they need.

Henrik

 

[rjack321]

Have you had the unfortune of flooding both the Extreme+ and the 400g? Any difference in warmth when flooded? Thanks.

I haven't had comparable floods. It <seems> like my long underwear choices make a bigger difference than undergarment. I have some merino wool long underwear and it holds a fair bit of water. Seems colder when I have a leak than the patagonia capilene long undies I wear other times.

 

[lamont]

One very nice lady did bring us home made brownies but I managed to steal most of them.....

pretty sure i managed to get more of them than you did after i came back for seconds.... =)

BTW, someone mentioned a comment from Casey (i think) about the XM450 panels -- I've found the XM450s to be overall warmer than the old 400g, but you can feel where the panels are. So at the end of a dive with the XM450s you might be annoyed that the back of your kidneys had a little bit of a chill, while you might be shivering in your 400g -- at least that is my impression.

 

[ucfdiver]

I haven't had comparable floods. It <seems> like my long underwear choices make a bigger difference than undergarment. I have some merino wool long underwear and it holds a fair bit of water. Seems colder when I have a leak than the patagonia capilene long undies I wear other times.

Mind linking to which undies you're using with that wool? They seem to have a big price range and I don't know much about that stuff.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

trace I'm interested in your tls experience. do you have just one? do you remember about when you bought it?

I purchased the TLS-350 about 2 years ago through Lehigh Valley Dive Center when I was employed there. Al Morris, the DUI sales rep, did the measuring. Bob Sherwood was on the phone with me to fine tune the process. I asked for the cave cut, but Al cautioned me that DUI wouldn't guarantee the fit. I opted to just go with the custom tailoring of the signature series.

Bob instructed me to make sure to go with the classic zipper since the regular zipper design is much more appropriate for obese or barrel-chested divers. If you have broad shoulders and a narrow waist the regular zipper will behind you at the kidney level and will make it more difficult for rescuers to access if they need to start CPR. The classic zipper will be more easily reached and unzipped both by the user on a day to day basis and by rescuers in an emergency. I'm 5' 10" with a 48 inch chest, 33 inch waist, 25 inches across the shoulders, and 27 inch thighs. My feet are 9.5 inches. Rather than record my foot, Al traced it.

When my signature series DUI TLS-350 arrived, it seemed way too big, and rather than the classic zipper, the regular zipper was on the suit! Tracking down the paperwork, Al had checked regular instead of classic! It was something I missed looking over the sheet, so I need to take the blame for that myself. Oh well, if EMS cuts my suit to perform CPR on me, you'll see it will be no real loss.

The boots were way too big as well. I wasn't able to dive the suit for a month because it arrived in the dead of winter. I dove it on a 3 week cave trip a month later. The boots were so big that my feet came out of my fins. I dove wet with AL80's instead in the caves that trip.

I contacted DUI and got a little hassle over the initial trial period, but in the end they understood why it took me 2 months to return the suit. They decided that they would replace the boots. If your feet get traced, then the burden for foot size shifts more to DUI I was told by one DUI dealer. The boots came back great. But, I still felt the suit was too large.

It was at this point that my love affair with DUI waned. I guess I became a little spoiled by the customer service that Halcyon provides and it was time to experience the normal world of diving customer service again. I approached Al about it at Beneath the Sea and was told that I probably lost weight since the winter and that the suit is cut for the thickest undergarment I'd be wearing. Since I wasn't getting the cave cut, I insisted that we list the lightest underwear DUI has as my thickest undergarment since I rarely wear thick underwear. Despite that, the suit in Bob Sherwood's opinion was "just diveable." Doug Mudry at EE also agreed that the suit is too big.

During a DUI Demo Day at Dutch Springs, I approached Faith about the suit. She said that she was a little too busy to look at it in detail, but from her point of view it did seem a little big, but she would prefer to check the fit with DUI's heavy underwear. At the same demo, a friend of mine was helping DUI by leading demo tours. He managed to slice the suit somehow on the thigh - most likely by contact with a zebra mussel. He's got great buoyancy, trim, propulsion skills and did that at some point while dealing with demo divers with poor drysuit skills. When he showed the DUI staff, they told him, "Zebra mussels are sharp!" I couldn't believe they weren't willing to patch it as a thank you for volunteering his time. I realize that it was his fault, but since he was volunteering - WTF???

I contacted DUI over the phone to explain that scuba is my career and to represent myself, my training agencies, employers, etc., that a drysuit for me should be looked at in the same way as a business suit on another professional such as a lawyer or pharmaceutical salesman. I believed that to adequately represent their product, that the suit should be tailored much like the suits you will find on the models in their ads and that I had seen some incredibly well-fitting cuts on various divers who wear the product. I was told that they probably had purchased the cave cut. I explained why I didn't get the cave cut and it was suggested that I get the cave cut next time since I would qualify for a new suit in a couple years. Good grief!

Anyway, the suit started leaking after the boots were replaced. I'd be damp, but didn't always know if that was from a leak or just from the amount of valve drills and other skills I do when teaching. I have deep grooves at the wrist tendons. Also, I do wiggle through tight hatches and wreck interior spaces, so I figured that some leaks might be small punctures or tears.

At the start of Dutch Springs' season on opening day, I had an intro to tech course. I went underwater and flooded like crazy. I thought I had left my zipper opened somewhat. In subsequent dives, it still flooded. Turns out the zipper's internal seal was broken. Doug Mudry's team at EE tested and repaired it. Doug told me that YKK changed the design to an inferior one and it wasn't DUI's fault since YKK is the only game in town. I put the suit on and did a dive in the St. Lawrence and it was dry! That lasted two dives. No contact with the bottom. No penetration on any dive. Zach at EE found another leak 4 inches away from my P-valve on the panel. He repaired that. That was dry for another 2 or 3 dives. I didn't send it to DUI, but rather EE because EE offers customer service including not charging me for part of the second repair.

Now, my right calf is leaking like a sieve. My boot begins to flood as I enter the water. This is the only TLS-350 I've owned. My friend bought one and tore the thigh on a picnic table while gearing up before his first dive on the suit back in 2000 or 2001.

Prior to this, I dove the DUI Norseman trilam with a weave intended for commercial diving. It was back zip without a zipper cover. The thing was a beast! I loved loved loved that suit! I was bone dry for many years after grabbing it around 1992 at Dosil's in NJ. It didn't start to leak until around 2006. Dove the crap out of it. I thought DUI was the greatest drysuit company in the world! I only replaced the wrist seals a few times, neck seal twice, and the zipper once. It became threadbare from use. I wanted Steve Gamble to keep it going, which he said, he could, but I'd still have a very old well-worn suit. At the same time, I won the Whites Fusion in the northeast regional Ultimate Diver Competition. The suit was super dry, but there were things that I didn't like about it and sold it to a student who really wanted it. I may buy it back.

Complaining about the suit to Bob Sherwood, he told me that he was having problems with his DUI. But, while out in San Diego they took his suit apart panel by panel and put it back together and tweaked it and now he likes the fit and dryness. He told me that I should have worked through the shop that sold me the suit. I told him you'd think that my position as an agency director would have mattered enough to DUI to try to sort it out because I really loved the company and my old suit.

For me to recommend DUI, I'd have to experience:

1. Good product performance
2. Good customer service

Or,

1. Excellent customer service when product performance is poor.

For example, "BUY HALCYON!" They have never done anything, but exceed any expectations I had regarding service.

Friends of mine who dive Santi tell me I'd like the cut over DUI for athletic builds.

 

[LiteHedded]

well doug would measure me for my suit so I don't expect to have any of those fit issues or for my suit to end up any way but how I order it. doug's the best in the business when it comes to that stuff.

I'm trying to track down someone who's ordered a suit recently after the material change and so far I haven't been able to find anyone.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

well doug would measure me for my suit so I don't expect to have any of those fit issues or for my suit to end up any way but how I order it. doug's the best in the business when it comes to that stuff.

I'm trying to track down someone who's ordered a suit recently after the material change and so far I haven't been able to find anyone.

That's another reason that I take or send my DUI to EE. Doug recommends Ralph at Scuba Shack for NE measurements. I sent a student there. His suit fits like a glove. He bought it this past Spring. No leaks.

If the new material was available then, I could put you in touch.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I got my TLS-350 in 2005. Had the measurements done at a DOG Days event (John ??? ... the regional rep did the measurements) ... best fitting suit I've ever had, and I've definitely got a "made-to-measure" body.

Suit's been semi-dry more than dry, but I dive the crap out've it ... and I'm typically hard on gear. As of now it's got, I'm sure, coming up on 1,000 dives on it ... and it's evolving from a trilam to a delam. But that's more dives than I've put on any suit I've ever owned, so I ain't complaining.

In fact, I'll definitely consider getting another one ... but only if they can promise me to cut it exactly like this one. More than anything I want that fit. As for the little, annoying leaks ... well, that's why God created Aquaseal ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)