Sandwich Sidemount

[Razorista]

Set it up, wore it, did not dive it, wasn't mine.
I do not think actually using one neccesarry to evaluate a sidemount system and I do not buy things useless to me
Other divers can use it, I just help them with the set-up part and first few dives.
In my opinion seeing other people using a setup correctly and with experience is a way better way of evaluating than trying it yourself first.

and btw: end of discussion!

 

[nakatomi]

Compared to a Hollis SMS100 or 75 I do not see a single disadvantage and a lot of advantages of building your own sandwich.

The OP was asking about using this BC in a cave environment. Since you are not a cave diver, I would suggest to tread lightly when it comes to these comparisons.
I'm on the same page as Tbone and others. A backplate has no business in a real SM cave.

 

[Razorista]

I still say a sidemount system dives the same inside and outside caves @nakatomi.
You should discuss that qualm with Toddy, not with me. Perhaps you start conversation by telling him he does not know 'real SM Cave'

 

[nakatomi]

I still say a sidemount system dives the same inside and outside caves

How would you know?

 

[DevonDiver]

The 'toddy-style' isn't really so far removed from several of the 'sidemount adaption' systems available on the market. The core function is simply to 'anti-taco' when converting a backmount wing for sidemount use.

@toby43 I'd suggest looking at some of the adapter systems for inspiration on principles and configuration. See here ( Top 5 - Sidemount Adapter Systems ) for some examples.

 

[Razorista]

Toddy is different, because there is a complete concept and own training regime behind it.
It includes a special regulator concept, unique more or less to this system only.
It includes several unique parts and modification and has some concepts contrary the current mainstream.

It is also unique in that is was originally a solution for rented stages with standard 'one-orientation' valves and removable backmounted rebreather.

I personally do not like the concept or the system.
I think however it is one of the most interesting hardware-solutions and one of the most highly developed concepts.

 

[tbone1004]

Toddy is different, because there is a complete concept and own training regime behind it.
It includes a special regulator concept, unique more or less to this system only.
It includes several unique parts and modification and has some concepts contrary the current mainstream.

It is also unique in that is was originally a solution for rented stages with standard 'one-orientation' valves and removable backmounted rebreather.

I personally do not like the concept or the system.
I think however it is one of the most interesting hardware-solutions and one of the most highly developed concepts.

it's not special, it's just unique to this system. All regulators are identical, that's not rocket science

rented stages with "normal" valves are a nonissue on your beloved single bungee razor, or the original bungees on the Nomad/SMS100, or a plethora of other units. Even with loop bungees diving them is possible. Is it ideal? of course not, but he is forcing a travel convenience to be the standard when you have to remember that many of the people that started sidemount diving did so by breaking down their doubles which already had lefty/righty valves

Here is the danger of the Toddy style system in true sidemount only cave diving, something that I have negligible experience with compared to others, but is fairly obvious. The diving ability of the unit is not relevant, you can make just about any rig trim out and look "ok" compared to the norm. The danger of using rigid backplates in sidemount only passages is that you have now created a wonderful ratchet mechanism. That rigid backplate on the way in can get you hung up because it is unyielding to the ceiling of the cave and get you stuck. You now try to back out, and the bottom which has a ridge up the middle for the bolts catches on the ceiling. You can't get your arms back there because the stages are in the way, and you get righteously stuck.
Remember that sidemount was invented for specific diving requirements and has only recently become a "standard" configuration for technical training, if a unit is not able to be used in it's original purpose, what purpose does it really have? Sure it gets bottles off of your back, but you don't need a sandwiched wing and all of the other nonsense to make it work "well enough".
you don't know what you don't know

 

[Razorista]

That why Toddy is so interesting, it is more complex on the inside.

It is not simply 'workable' with standard valves, standard valves are ideal when using it, but the same setup will also work with left-right valves without any compromises.
I love my Razor, but it can only do that if I copy some of Toddy's concepts.

Regarding the backplate the disadvantages you mentioned are certainly true. Since Toddy wanted to include a 'conventional' backmounted rebreather, it is unavoidable.

If you really look at the current way it is build by actual users, however, those disadvantages become 'outdated'.
Attaching the harness to the outer backplate and putting the wing and second backplate on the inside keeps the backplate mobile but close to the body.
Many use slimmed down outer backplates with tiny single tank wings as streamlined as some harness systems and most of the time more streamlined than an SMS system.
The wing covers the edges of those backplates quite well, I would rather fear damaging the wing than getting stuck on the plate.

In my opinion it is not the best concept, but there are worse.
From a purely technical standpoint it is a DIY-system very similar looking and working to the Hollis SMS100 and 75, but much more personalized, streamlined and versatile.
If you consider the SMS100 a usable system a Toddy could replace it on any dive.
If you also consider some of the other ideas surrounding it, it sometimes looks much more different than the two categories DevonDiver mentioned recently.
Compared to Toddy as a counterpoint, Florida and Mexico sidemount syles are only different in details.

 

[tbone1004]

the hard backplates are not required for backmount rebreathers. The Nomad XT and Hollis SMS75/100, will accept all backmount breathers without a rigid plate, and the Armadillo will accept most with some work since it does not have bolt holes, only cam straps.

The toddy system can not replace the SMS or Nomad systems on true sidemount dives due to the ratchet effect. Yes in normal dives it is functional, but the soft plates will not get you hung up on the ceiling

I have no issue with his regulator choices, that is personal preference and still being ironed out, I disagree that mandatory bottle switches are the norm and it does truly restrict you to aluminum bottles due to ballast constraints, but the rigid backplate is not the way to do sidemount, it is outright dangerous in true sidemount passages

 

[Razorista]

It is more useful flying through restrictions just large enough for that, it is not optimal for squeezing.
I do not think a hard plate will get hung up more easily than the weight system on a Hollis, or a piece of badly placed weight on a harness system.

I would avoid squeezing with it because it would leave marks on the cave and rip off rock and rusty metal before getting stuck on it.