Safety Stops and old practices

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lykoyrgos,

Anyone's 'first-hand testimony' amounts to "n = 1". It is valid (to date) for that one person only. It may or may not be valid for others.

...

Exactly right. That is the beauty of it. A nice customized set of data points.:D

"Know thyself" was incribed upon the temple of Delphi in ancient Greece.

That beats knowing the sample any day, since you yourself can easily fall outside of the set.

Glowing impressive "studies" have never impressed me much. Most of them are eventually superseded by equally glowing and more impressive "studies" later on, as history has shown.

I am not disagreeing with Hobbs on the value of safety stops. I am simply noting that if the agency he cited took their study so seriously, then why did they not make safety stops mandatory rather than optional?
 
"Are you sure you want to add Gene_Hobbs to your ignore list? "

Thank Heavens for this feature!
Yes, darn Gene for making all these scientific studies about decompression and diving physiology available to the general public! Shame on him for encouraging us to question conventional wisdom and look things up for ourselves...


Speaking of ignore lists, I think I just found someone to add to mine. :shakehead:


"lykoyrgos":
  • completely unknown entity
  • showed up magically on scubaboard several days ago
  • thinks they know everything, while showing no credentials or scientific studies/backing
  • Pontificates mindless drivel

Gene Hobbs:
  • Spent the more recent part of his life dedicated to amassing as much information about diving physiology as possible and making it viewable to the general public
  • Taken hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of his time and manually inputting data into a research database to make the above possible
  • One of the most knowledgeable people I know of with decompression physiology
  • I know where he had his original diving training, I know his dive buddies, and have even been diving with him on occasion
  • Great guy all around, and is willing to help out a friend in need. Heck, he is even on my speed dial.



...I know who I'm listening to when it comes to deco (or just about any other diving-related topic, for that matter). You are all free to make your own choices, of course. :cool2:
 
[snip]
Total safety stop time = 5 mins.

Gotcha. I follow the same ascent pattern for sub-NDL dives (30fpm to 50% and 10fpm up).

I interpreted your post as meaning you stop at "safety stop depth" (30, 15, whatever) for 5 minutes.
 
Gotcha. I follow the same ascent pattern for sub-NDL dives (30fpm to 50% and 10fpm up).

I interpreted your post as meaning you stop at "safety stop depth" (30, 15, whatever) for 5 minutes.

NAUI's instructor magazine was the first to call attention to the concern that a 3 min stop at 15 fsw can be insufficient for a 100 fsw dive. That was several years ago, however, as I recall. So NAUI recommended the 50 ft stop in that case.

The current unresolved issue therefore is (1) how deep? and (2) how long? for the safety stop?

The 1/2 MOD rule with 10 ft increments takes that into account.

However it is still very anecdotal, which is to say, only certain technical decompression divers have begun to adopt such a procedure for NDL diving as well.

The rest of the recreational diving world struggles with "who[m] to listen to?"
 
What's I find important to note is that (to my understanding) Navy missions generally didn't call for repet dives, so the pragmatism of using a Navy model to plan repet dives can be questioned.

That all depends on what type of military (Navy) diving we are talking about. I think the most we did in one day was around 20. 5 to 10 in one day was not unusual at all. The problem with the news the general public gets is all Navy Divers are either SEALS or diving mega deep. That's not the case.

The repair and salvage divers may make dozens of shallow dives day after day for weeks or months on end. By shallow I mean 60' or less but closer to the 40' range but there were days where we went close to 200' for something or another. It was not unusual to make 1000 to 1500 dives a year. These were all done safely under the Navy Dive Tables.

Gary D.
 
Exactly right. That is the beauty of it. A nice customized set of data points.:D

"Know thyself" was incribed upon the temple of Delphi in ancient Greece.

That beats knowing the sample any day, since you yourself can easily fall outside of the set.

That would have to be the most ridiculous justification for ignoring the power of the scientific method I have ever come across!! :dork2:
 
What's driving these changes in safety stop depths and times is research, including several of the studies pointed out by TSandM and Gene, et. al. One of the primary tools in use now is ultrasound for finding and counting subclinical vascular bubbles, the reasoning being that if you can reduce the subclinical bubbles then you can reduce the chance of getting the larger kinds which cause DCS.

My impression is that things are pointing to half-depth safety stops with moderately fast ascent rates. For example, see the new safety stop rule being proposed by NAUI (reproduced below), which I'll bet other agencies will soon adopt. Note that it emphasizes the half-stop time even more than the traditional 15' stop time.

And while I've also heard from many that they prefer just an extremely slow ascent... look at the data, because that's not necessarily the best way to avoid bubbles! One of the Bennett studies shows that the slow-and-steady ascent generated the second-highest bubble count of all the profiles under consideration.

Instead, it looks like a moderately fast (30fpm), stairstep ascent to the half-stop, and then similarly on to the 15' stop, is the safest in terms of minimizing bubbles.

My guess is the problem with the extremely slow and steady ascent is you're ultimately taking on more nitrogen at depth and overall staying down longer than someone doing a moderately fast stairstep ascent.

Remember, all these discussions about safety stops are strictly for recreational-limit, non-deco dives.

>*< Fritz

P.S. I am not a physician, but my business is digital medical imaging (PACS and related systems), so I do know a thing or two about ultrasounds and imaging technology. I am also inclined to trust hard data more than anecdotal information, especially when supported by multiple studies. I have no idea why the one poster insists on using the scare quotes around these "studies", as if there's something questionable about them. I would be inclined in that case to put all his "comments" in quotes to equally call them into question.


Here's the proposed NAUI revision (bold emphasis mine):

NAUI Rule of Halves Revised

Based upon the most current research and analysis of decompression science on the value of deep stops in "no-required-decompression" diving by Bennett et al (Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine 2007; 34(6): 399-406, the NAUI Board of Directors approved a change to the NAUI Standards and Policies on March 7, 2008, at its annual meeting. A reprint of the study is included in this issue of Sources (pp. 48 ff).

The membership is advised to make a pen and ink change in their personal copy of the manual and mark both the title page and changed page with "rev. 1-08". Notice of these changes is included in existing inventory of the NAUI Standards and Policies Manual, and the changes will be incorporated in the next printing.

S&P Page 2.16 Current wording
It is recommended that following dives in excess of 40 feet (12m), divers make a one minute stop at a depth that is half that of the deepest depth reached during the dive and make a precautionary stop in the 10-20 feet (3-6m) zone for three to five minutes before returning to the surface. The precautionary stop time may be considered "neutral time" - not counted as either dive time or surface interval time.

S&P Page 2.16 Changed wording
It is recommended that following dives in excess of 40 feet (12m), divers make a two to three minute stop (with two and one-half minutes being optimum) at a depth that is half that of the deepest depth reached during the dive and make a precautionary stop in the 10-20 feet (3-6m) zone for one minute before returning to the surface. The precautionary stop time may be considered "neutral time" - not counted as either dive time or surface interval time.

Bennett et al have extended their study to include diving over a greater range of depths from deep (130 fsw) to shallow and will present these findings at the UHMS "Decompression and Deep Stop Workshop" on June 24-25, 2008, in Salt Lake City, Utah, sponsored by NAUI Worldwide and other dive industry members.
 
Also, note that DAN is currently sponsoring another study specifically to determine the effects of ascent rate on subclinical bubble formation. Results are forthcoming, should be interesting!

>*< Fritz
 
That all depends on what type of military (Navy) diving we are talking about. I think the most we did in one day was around 20. 5 to 10 in one day was not unusual at all. The problem with the news the general public gets is all Navy Divers are either SEALS or diving mega deep. That's not the case.

The repair and salvage divers may make dozens of shallow dives day after day for weeks or months on end. By shallow I mean 60' or less but closer to the 40' range but there were days where we went close to 200' for something or another. It was not unusual to make 1000 to 1500 dives a year. These were all done safely under the Navy Dive Tables.

Gary D.

I believe on repetitive dives the Navy tables are more conservative than some others.
Until I started diving with the Edge computer in 1984 all my previous dives were on Navy tables with no safety stops and 60 fpm accent rate. The Edge accent rate is 30 fpm and the Edge no D times are shorter than the Navy tables. My Oceanic computer no D times are closer to the Navy tables than the Edge no D times. I still rarely do a SS based on my personal experience with those three decompression models.
 

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