Saba - be careful

[fatherandsondiver]

It is interesting to read all of these posts. Quite clear to me that there is a diving community out there that feels strongly that 12 year olds should have their depth limited. Padi does not require a limit, but I acknowledge that the fact that Padi does not have a limit does not make it right.

I will state the facts again one last time, and people can draw their own conclusions.

1) I was on a family vacation in Anguilla
2) I contacted a dive shop in Saba ahead of time indicating my desire to dive in Saba for one day only while we were in nearby Anguilla.
3) Scout's Place welcomed me to come. I told them of my son's age, my desire to dive deep, and my issues the prior year with my son in Saba. I was told by email that depth would be no problem.
4) We flew to Saba and went to Scouts Place, who happily took our money and had us wait for transfer to the boat area.
5) It was only after we were at the boat area, with no other options, that my son's age was brought up by the dive master. Interestingly, the DM explained to me she told her management in advance that she would not take my son deep, but no body at their operation bothered to communicate with me.
6) I objected at this point, but had no options but to try to make the most of my situation. Whether you agree with me or not for wanting to dive a pinnacle with my son, I had expressed our situation to the dive operation in the clearest of terms in advance. I even went so far as to email them the day before to see if the bad weather would present an issue.
7) I took offense when the DM told me, in front of my son, that it was medically dangerous to dive deep at his age. Having done research on the issue subsequently, I still see lack of evidence for this claim. While no body has proven it "safe", no one has shown it dangerous either. Perhaps my son should not be diving, but it is not the DM's place to tell him to his face that he is putting himself at risk. Further, the dive shop really should have told me before taking me to the water that my son's age was a problem. That is the bait and switch.
8) I was prepared to let this all go away and move on, simply emailing the shop that they mislead me. The owner himself chose to write back with no remorse and a sense of pride for what transpired. He was out of place and for that I want a refund. Short of that, he could beat radio silence.

All stories have two sides. Maybe I push too hard. I did not need to travel to Saba however and I went for a very specific reason. It is beyond me why this dive shop did not say "sorry, we should have told you in advance..." Instead, they stand on ceremony that I am a bad guy and they were protecting me. By the way, they took a full boat of divers to a deeper site that day. My son and I, along with two others, received special treatment on the more shallow dive. And I did not know this was going to happen until we were at sea. Before we boarded, the DM said I should dive as deep as I want, though no deeper than she was, and I was at my own risk for my son.

With that, I am done commenting here. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[firstdive2005]

Just because of point 7 your child should be removed from you as you are conducting dive experiments on your son. You would bode well to take all these posts to a psycologist and have a chat. This has gone way beyond diving. Your sons life is in danger while in your care and I hope and pray you come out of this fog you are in.

 

[BDSC]

Just because of point 7 your child should be removed from you as you are conducting dive experiments on your son. You would bode well to take all these posts to a psycologist and have a chat. This has gone way beyond diving. Your sons life is in danger while in your care and I hope and pray you come out of this fog you are in.

What a dumb thing to say. This statement is totally ludicrous. Turn your prayers inward and hope that YOU come out of the fog you are in!

 

[ScubaSteve]

..........

You are right that there is a dive community out here that thinks that a 12 year should not go below a certain depth. And, I believe PADI actually does set a limit based on their junior certification. Bottom line is, I hope that you can look at what has been said here and accept that maybe because so many people feel so strongly in favour of your son's well being, that maybe it is worth considering or listening to. In 99.9% of the cases it is your choice (as well as his), but this dive community just wants all those that share the water to be around for many more dives. While it is perhaps not scientifically proven that deeper diver will harm a young child, there are enough cases of what may be coincidences to not want to risk it. Or at least I would definitely not want to risk it.

This is said without attacking you, but other than confusion as to what would be allowed and what would not, I believe the Dive Op handled themselves pretty well. I can see you having an issue with the mis-communication but I cannot understand why you would wait to say anything until it was by email and not in person. It should have been addressed as soon as you got off the boat in a professional manner. Because it was not until after that anything was said, it really makes it like finishing a meal and the compaining about how the meat was cooked. As for what the DM said in front of you and your son, I see nothing wrong with it as you have shown it.

Really, just look at the posts here that are not attacking you in any way and try to look at them through the eyes of someone who has the best of intentions at heart. Then, go out and have fun, dive safe AND dive often. I do recommend that you and your son get out and do some local diving through the summer just to gain more experience, see the local attractions and keep your skills honed.

 

[Web Monkey]

Padi does not require a limit, but I acknowledge that the fact that Padi does not have a limit does not make it right.

PADI most certainly does have a limit for 12 year olds.

SSI and every other agency that I'm aware of that will even certify a 12 year old also has a limit for children.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

What a dumb thing to say. This statement is totally ludicrous. Turn your prayers inward and hope that YOU come out of the fog you are in!

What dive op would take a 12 year old on a dive that exceeds both the child's training and certification limits, violates the DM's limits for where he/she can take a 12 year old (which more than likely means there's no insurance coverage) and opens the shop up to an astonishing liability in case anything bad happened?

If the DM took the kid on the dive, something bad happened and the child was crippled for life, you can bet we'd be hearing a different story about how the "negligent dive op took my son on a dive he should never have been on".

Terry

 

[ScubaSteve]

What dive op would take a 12 year old on a dive that exceeds both the child's training and certification limits, violates the DM's limits for where he/she can take a 12 year old (which more than likely means there's no insurance coverage) and opens the shop up to an astonishing liability in case anything bad happened?

If the DM took the kid on the dive, something bad happened and the child was crippled for life, you can bet we'd be hearing a different story about how the "negligent dive op took my son on a dive he should never have been on".

Terry

While I agree with you, there are stories posted all the time here on SB and other boards about DM's taking people to depths that exceed their training and theoretical agency limits. It happens way too often, and I am thankful for the shops and those dive professionals that are charged with touring people around that actually perform their duties in a safe and courteous manner and will always put safety before "going deeper to get a bigger tip" (just an example).

 

[BDSC]

What dive op would take a 12 year old on a dive that exceeds both the child's training and certification limits, violates the DM's limits for where he/she can take a 12 year old (which more than likely means there's no insurance coverage) and opens the shop up to an astonishing liability in case anything bad happened?

If the DM took the kid on the dive, something bad happened and the child was crippled for life, you can bet we'd be hearing a different story about how the "negligent dive op took my son on a dive he should never have been on".

Terry

I don't understand your response to my quote. What your are talking about here has nothing to do with my address to firstdive2005. That person had taken the fact that the dad wanted to take his son on a deep dive which may or may not be harmful and turned it into him doing dive experiments on his son and overall making him an unfit dad and a danger to his son anytime he is around his son. It was just a ridicolous statement from firstdive2005. And to top it all off firstdive2005 has a by-line about judging others.

 

[Web Monkey]

I don't understand your response to my quote. What your are talking about here has nothing to do with my address to firstdive2005. That person had taken the fact that the dad wanted to take his son on a deep dive which may or may not be harmful and turned it into him doing dive experiments on his son and overall making him an unfit dad and a danger to his son anytime he is around his son. It was just a ridicolous statement from firstdive2005. And to top it all off firstdive2005 has a by-line about judging others.

It's not all that ridiculous. Taking a child into a situation that is considered by the SCUBA industry to be excessively dangerous for children could easily be considered child endangerment.

While I don't think the cops are going to stop by to pick up the kid, I also don't think the father accepts the rules the SCUBA industry has in place to keep children safe.

Terry

 

[BDSC]

It's not all that ridiculous. Taking a child into a situation that is considered by the SCUBA industry to be excessively dangerous for children could easily be considered child endangerment.

While I don't think the cops are going to stop by to pick up the kid, I also don't think the father accepts the rules the SCUBA industry has in place to keep children safe.

Terry

I understand the position that taking a child to deep depths may not be a wise decision. I don't know that I would do it. More than likely not. I just don't see how anyone can draw the conclusion the child is in danger anytime he is with his dad and that the dad needs some kind of clinical help because of it. Just a dumb statement to make.