Saba - be careful

[Walter]

I had forgotten Walter that you do know of someone who has significant issues that may be directly correlated with early deep diving, do you not?

Yes, a delightful young lady who now has children of her own. Her parents owned a dive resort. She grew up diving and many of those dives were deeper than many of us would allow our children to make. Her bones never developed properly, she has constant pain and more difficulty with simple tasks than would be expected for someone many years her senior. Her case does not constitute a scientific study, but it does confirm the possibility of serious health problems as a result of children diving deep. She and her physician are convinced her health problems are the direct result of her diving. I can see no benefit from allowing children to make deep dives. I can see the potential for a lifetime of pain. To me, it's a very easy call.

 

[Doc.Caliban]

The person who would make the decision to not do the dive is the dive instructor who led the dive. That is the person who has the final say because they are the person who is ultimately responsible for the dive. Not the shop owner, or the manager.

If the decision made by an instructor is grossly off base, then yes, asking the dive shop to take ownership of the issue and offer a refund might be appropriate. But when you're talking about advanced dive sites in less than good weather and water conditions, then 'reasonably prudent' will equate to a conservative decision every time if it's me on the boat.

Experienced divers know and understand this.

When a shop states that they will do this or that, they can't force an instructor do to something that the instructor is not comfortable doing. That's the simple truth of the matter, and I think that the other instructors on this board would agree that as the person who will be held legally accountable in the event of an accident, they would rather quit and move on to a different dive shop than make a dive that they are not comfortable with.

EDIT: I also believe that shop owners count on their instructors to be this way, and to therefore minimize the risk to the business itself.

That choice is made by the instructor irrespective of a customer's opinion of themselves, their buddy, the conditions, the circumstances, etc. If someone is unhappy with the decision that is made, they are welcome to make that option known. However, it is unlikely that being unhappy with a conservative decision will get much support from the instructor community.

In short:

The dive didn't happen because of the instructors rightful decision.

An experienced diver knows that a shop will promise best effort to get you the dive you want, but they cannot force their (good) instructors to decide against their judgment on the dive site.​

IMO the only thing the dive shop could have done differently that would have prevented this thread in the first place would have been to say something along the lines of, "there will be no problem and you can dive as deep as you and the dive instructor feel comfortable." The shop owners and experienced divers know that this is how it works.


As a disclaimer, I only offer the following as second hand. I'm obviously not fully aware of all of the details of any of these supposed events, but I trust the people who told me of them and I figured that it may help the people taking part in this discussion to have a slightly bigger picture to consider. My apologies to the OP if neither event are true or accurate.

Since I live on Saba and used to work for one of the other dive shops here, I spoke with someone at Saba Divers (the island is tiny and everyone knows everyone) and I was told that the day after the dives, the OP wrote to the dive shop thanking them and the instructor for the dives, stated that he and his son had a great time, and acknowledged the poor weather conditions and extra effort that the dive crew put in to get all three planned dives done that day. (We did have very crappy weather for a couple of weeks around that time.)

What changed? Why the different attitude now? Is this not it's own type of 'classic bait and switch'?

I'm also curious about this statement by the OP:

Padi rules, as best I can tell, permit him to dive deep as long as he is with me, once he turns 12 (he was not permitted at age 10 or 11).

I've heard that one of the other Saba dive shops supposedly knows the OP from last year when the son was 11, and after declining to take the son on a deep dive based on the rules that the OP mentions above, ended up having to give the OP his money back to resolve the resultant upset.

I'm the first to admit that I don't personally handle disappointment well. However, I do make an effort to see where the boundaries are between 'circumstance' and 'fault'. The disappointment of the OP, which apparently didn't surface until after the first 'thank you' email was sent, is completely understandable and requires no justification whatsoever. We're human. We get pissed off at things. However, it doesn't sound like any particular part of the mechanism was really broken. Whatever exchanges that have occurred after the dive trip would seem to be more of an issue of needing to place blame in a situation that is almost entirely a matter of circumstance.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but again: Experienced divers know that in spite of anything else, the dive instructor leading the dive has the final decision. Had the conditions been better, and had the instructor had a different opinion of the junior diver, then they probably would have taken him on the dive. The instructor's opinion is final, and it's based on their interpretation of the circumstances.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

"Their error was saying, in writing, "come to Saba and dive as deep with your son as you feel comfortable and we have no problem with his 12 year old age" before I booked the trip. They only changed their tune once I had flown to Saba and paid them for the dive."

By putting this in writing it constitutes an offer. You had a reasonable expectation that the offer would be followed through on, and spent money accordingly. You have grounds for a valid complaint.

Each offer, however, is only made based on information that is known at the time the offer is made. If new information develops, the entity making the offer may have grounds to reconsider the offer.

As has been stated above, what you requested was beyond limits that - were a case to be made in court - have been legally established as "reasonable".

If the dive operation allows an event to take place beyond 'reasonable' limits, they incur substantially higher liability.

Whether or not they wanted to do this may have been based on additional information that developed after they made the initial offer to you.

While you certainly have grounds for complaint, you also need to understand that given additional information (of any type), they also have the right to review how much liability they are willing to accept.

Clearly, they decided not to accept the additional liability.

They may owe you an apology, or a discount, or whatever, but (taking your facts at face value) the mere fact that they made you an offer does not compel them to follow through on it if additional information develops that grossly increases their liability in the matter. Liability could conceivably destroy their operation.



And just for the record, while I enjoyed diving with my sons also, no matter how mature your son is, taking him too deep too fast is unproductive. Things can come apart with staggering rapidity at depth, you can be separated in countless ways, and there is no dive experience worth your son's life. You will have years (hopefully) to dive with him as he grows up. Enjoy the shallow dives now, and the time will come in the future for the more challenging dives. Kids that young, generally speaking, have no business being that deep. If things go suddenly wrong, kids often do not have the presence of mind to react non-instinctively, and instinctive reactions underwater are frequently non-recoverable.

Sorry for your frustration. It is indeed frustrating. But, as the others have already said, look at this situation as an opportunity to rethink things.

Best Regards,

Doc

 

[crabby cappy]

It seemed your post was about a shop not about the the boy diving. Things get messed up . My son started diving before 10 a was always a fish. I took him out of football when three of his teammates wrecked thier knees. I felt diving was safer. HE DOVE ON CHARTER BOATS AND LIVEABOARDS. At lease 5 instructors dove with him when he was young and guess what he never had a c card. Keep diving with him may you find a boat that you love.

 

[don Francisco]

I know the folks at Saba Divers fairly well and have dived with them a number of times, and I find them to be a professional diligent operation in all respects. That you were a victim of mis-communication seems obvious and possibly some sort of refund might be in order. I can't comment either way because there seem to have been some side issues occurring.

I only have one question. Did you have decent dives? Saba has a number of very nice sites within the 40' depth range, and I was wondering if you and your son were able to enjoy the dives or were so worked up about not going deeper or seeing a pinnacle that you couldn't enjoy what was available.

Please don't take this the wrong way, and it has nothing to do with the specific issues, but if you allowed your disappointment and anger about the limitation keep you both from enjoying the dive, you both missed an opportunity and you also missed an opportunity to teach your son a valuable lesson about diving (and life in general). You may not get what you want, but that shouldn't keep you from making the best of and enjoying what you have.

Don't take me wrong. I'm not saying that you should just accept what you feel is unfair treatment, just that you should enjoy your vacation first and fight about the money or principle later.

 

[wreckchick]

I sent an e-mail to Saba Divers and pointed them to this thread so they could respond if they so choose.

Rachel

 

[ScubaSteve]

I sent an e-mail to Saba Divers and pointed them to this thread so they could respond if they so choose.

Rachel

I did the same yesterday just before I posted. I would like to hear their side of the story (if they choose to post).

 

[ncchuck]

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see anything where the dive OP agreed to use a DM or Instructor to take your 12 year old diving. They indicated they had no problem with a 12 year old diving. I don't either as long as I am not responsible for them. The PADI rule is 40 feet and you are grossly negligent if you dive with a 12 year old beyond that limit. I'll bet you can't find a single professional source of information that indicates it is safe! As indicated by many others, we just don't know, why take the chance?

I really think the 12 year old's parents should find a dive buddy for the 12 year old and teach both of them to follow rules and the advice of dive certification agencies. Mom and Dad can dive to whatever depths they feel are right for them but taking a 12 year to 80' based on available information is just asking for trouble. It's just plain wrong and potentially dangerous.

If I were the dive op, I give them a refund, send them a new PADI manual and suggest they spend the refund on counseling.

 

[firstdive2005]

Hi Fathersondive! I get real happy inside when I see dads with their sons. Maybe even jealous, im 51. I don't know if I ever threw a ball with mine. When a son/daughter get to do one on one with a dad that's magic. The youngster gets a chance. They grow emotionally,physically and I think most importantly, spiritually. You give your son a very cool gift each time you are THERE. I'm jealous. don francisco is a very wise man, I love his position- roughly quoted,"did you take the time to show him a very cool life lesson, lets make some lemonaide son". All the people that have responded to this thread have no reason to interfere in your life other than to see you dive another day with your boy. I'm jealous. The ultimate statement coming out- "It takes a village to raise a child". When I travel I make sure getting there is part of the trip. Even ****ty waits in the airport. You dive, your smart. You dive enough to know instructors are THE MOST CARING PEOPLE ON THE RESORT. They want everyone to know the sport and know it well. This career/passion however long it lasts is the most dedicated I have ever come across, besides parenting. I dont think the money is the issue. I dont think what the op said is an issue. I believe everything happens for a reason. If you sit back and look a this whole unfolding event to right now you can see intelligent design at work. You can teach your son the most important lesson in the world right now and say, you know what maybe they were right son, it might be a good idea to wait a while to go that depth, noone is sure if it's ok or not. So we(I'm jealous) are going to do some awesome dives at different depths. Loose the words shallow and deep. Do you think you lost face in front of your son or something? Impossible your a GREAT dad. I'm jealous

 

[farsidefan1]

Ahh, more information dribbles in. Thanks Doc. (quote below). Seems to me like the problem is that the PO feels like his son is as capable of handling the technical aspects of a deeper dive, at which I take him at his word. That isn't the issue in the minds of many experienced instructos and others here. It's RISK. Sounds like the office made an error which was corrected on site by the divemaster - as is his responsibility. On the other hand it doesn't sound like you missed any diving (My assumption based upon the thank you note email from the OP to the dive shop shortly after the trip).\
Memo to OP, don't just hear what you want to hear. Consider concerns being expressed for the welfare of your kid. These aren't folks out for your money, they are just offering you sound advice. Maybe, just maybe, you should pay some attentiion. Your son may be fully competent. Congratulations, again, that isn't the point! Read about Walters associate again and think about it. Good luck, to your son.

"Since I live on Saba and used to work for one of the other dive shops here, I spoke with someSince I live on Saba and used to work for one of the other dive shops here, I spoke with someone at Saba Divers (the island is tiny and everyone knows everyone) and I was told that the day after the dives, the OP wrote to the dive shop thanking them and the instructor for the dives, stated that he and his son had a great time, and acknowledged the poor weather conditions and extra effort that the dive crew put in to get all three planned dives done that day.one at Saba Divers (the island is tiny and everyone knows everyone) and I was told that the day after the dives, the OP wrote to the dive shop thanking them and the instructor for the dives, stated that he and his son had a great time, and acknowledged the poor weather conditions and extra effort that the dive crew put in to get all three planned dives done that day."