Running the boat over my head after back roll.

[johndiver999]

Hi guys

Back roll after he stopped the engine and gave me a command to go. Blow on the head (in a 5mm hood). Surfacing to invite my guests to get into the water, when I see the boat moving away from me (in perfectly still water), and one of my clients already in the water between me and the boat (?!)… My head hurts like crazy, it takes me a moment to understand, what had happened. I take down the hood... and the blood bursts all over the place..my face, hands
I should have lis

This is what I saw. Hard to understand how it happened. It is so important that capt and diver communicate.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I heard something about by putting the motor in gear (either forward or backward), the propeller would suck any buoyant object and shear it.

The learning point for me here is to not back roll, just fall on my back and keep my feet against incoming object, i.e., the boat. Having air in BCD will keep me afloat & above the propeller.

Kick away from the boat as you hit the water

 

[johndiver999]

I heard something about by putting the motor in gear (either forward or backward), the propeller would suck any buoyant object and shear it.

The learning point for me here is to not back roll, just fall on my back and keep my feet against incoming object, i.e., the boat. Having air in BCD will keep me afloat & above the propeller.

. No. When you enter in bouyant condition, you are by definition out of control. The force of entry drives you underwater with considerable force, the before you can do much of anything, your excess bouyant force drive you back to the surface, probably in a head up position. This does not keep you safe from a propellor or rudder

 

[Dan]

Kick away from the boat as you hit the water

Of course.

 

[Dan]

. No. When you enter in bouyant condition, you are by definition out of control. The force of entry drives you underwater with considerable force, the before you can do much of anything, your excess bouyant force drive you back to the surface, probably in a head up position. This does not keep you safe from a propellor or rudder

So tell us how you do it safely?

I think we are talking about small boat with perhaps the side of the boat is about 2’ from water surface. We are not talking about a big boat with 4-6’ drop where giant stride would be a better way of entry. The more air BCD the quicker you would bounce back up to the surface and fin away from the boat that tries to run you over.

 

[The Chairman]

Nope. I always open up one ear holding the hood away to hear. And I asked twice if it's ok to go. He got irritated when I asked again.

That only makes sense. I don't wear hoods, so I didn't know that strategy. Were you able to figure out if he just never fully disengaged the prop, or did he engage it on the drop?

 

[chillyinCanada]

@Jenny Vannari

I've sent you a couple of private messages on Scubaboard. Please check Conversations and I'll look forward to hearing back from you.

 

[Sam Miller III]

Hoods-- reminds me of one of my letters regarding the history of hoods...
Originally hoods were almost an afterthought --two pieces of neoprene glued together- some times loose fitting other times entirely too tight fitting.
From my correspondence file

1. "In 1967 to 1982 there was a great LA County Chief Medical Examiner aka CME aka "Coroner," Dr. Tom Noguchi who as we often stated "practiced Horizontal Medicine" since all his patients were always flat on their backs.
   
   Dr. Noguchi was born in Tokyo Japan and migrated to the US after WW11 where he acquired several post doctor specialties and eventually joined the LA County Coroner's office and became the LA County Chief Medical Examiner aka CME aka Coroner in 1967. Some may recall him as the "Coroner of the stars" because of the large number of Hollywood stars that went to the other side during his tenure.
   
   He came to public attention and a household name for a series of autopsies; which he performed on a number of celebrities that included Albert Dekker, Robert F. Kennedy, Sharon Tate, Janis Joplin, Inger Stevens, Gia Scala, David Janssen, William Holden, Natalie Wood, and John Belushi.
   
   The fountain head of recreational and commercial diving at that time was in Southern California and LA County Underwater Instructors association was at the forefront of diving.
   
   The recreational divers dry suit which had been perfected in the 1940s by the late Bill Barada,( LA County UW instructor) and marketed under the banner of Aqula was rapidly phasing out in favor of the wet suit which has been serendipitously discovered by Hugh Bradner abd Willard Bascom and place on the market in 1954 as the EDCO wet suit just 13 years previously.
   
   The Aqula drysuit had a attached hood and on some models attached feet -- a true full body protection whereas the EDCO was originally sold as a shorty but soon was marketed as a full suit 3 piece wetsuit, jacket, pants and hood. It was the hood that was discovered culprit in several near misses and equal number of unexplained diving fatalities.
   
   At that junction in diving we were still experimenting and searching for answers. And as I recall from my first day in anatomy class there was a huge banner over the door which proclaimed "We learn from the dead" and indeed we did and do...
   
   There was an LA Co Ordinance or some sort of an agreement that ALL diving deaths would be subject to a four point investigation and report as follows:
   1) A LA Co Certified Instructor would investigate and submit a standard form report as to adherence to established diving policies and procedures. (I did several that occurred in Orange county, which is south of LA county )
   2) Equipment would be tagged and submitted to Al Thompson's Professional SCUBA Repair (PSR) for extensive evaluation as to performance and air quality. PSR closed it doors so the activity was performed at UCLA under the direction of Dr. Glen Egstrom, LA County & NAUI Instructor. (Now @Ken Kurtis, NAUI instructor does something of this nature ?)
   3) If involved the LA County life guards were required to also submitted at report
   4) The deceased body was transported to Dr Noguchi who performed a very extensive autopsy on the diseased.
   5) All reports were combined and a final report was created and available to involved or concerned personnel.
   
   Unfortunately it was discovered that this could possibly did create a "post mortem deflation of character of the deceased" and was halted after several years of operation
   
   But not without certain findings.
   
   "As I recall --" there were two, perhaps more deaths in which there was no apparent trauma the victim just went to sleep which baffled all concerned except Dr. Noguchi who meticulously examined to body and equipment reports
   
   Dr. Noguchi discovered that the victims were wearing very tight hoods that restricted blood flow via the two Carotid arteries to the brain and they slowly fell asleep.
   
   Dr Tom Noguchi identified this syndrome as "Carotid sinus reflex" or "Carotid sinusitis reflex" (the suffix "sitis" indication irritation. Locally we called it the "Charlie Chan effect" after the 1930s and 1940s moves in which there was a victim with no marks on body but Charlie Chan discovered that there had been pressure placed on the temples, the victim slowly fell a sleep and ultimately passed away .
   
   Immediately all wet suit manufactures, most were in SoCal, began examining the design of the wetsuit hood and the need for redesign. Now it is time for dry suit manufactures and dive shops to pay more attention to the drysuit's neck seal...I suspect that current crop of hoods have undergone the test of time
   
   All that occurred around 50 years ago and has been largely forgotten except for a few who were involved. so now an old syndrome "Carotid sinus reflex" or the "Charlie Chan effect" has been resurrected and will soon be come a part of the divers lingo
   
   Cheers from California -- where it all began
   
   Sam Miller,III

 

[Miyaru]

I can't believe some people are focussing on whether there was air in her BCD or not.
Present or not, once a propellor starts it will suck everything in front of it into the rotating blades. And that propellor only starts when the person operating the engine engages the gear from neutral to forward. Unexcusable human error.
And from the description it was clear that another diver was in the water between the victim and the moving boat. So the same unexcusable human error was made twice. This DM is/was a clusterf#cktard.

 

[IncreaseMyT]

I can't believe some people are focussing on whether there was air in her BCD or not..

Please go back and read the thread again before getting all up in arms. I can't believe I have to explain this, again.

No one was trying to figure that out, it was merely a suggestion for her and for other divers reading, to try to use a negative entry when back-rolling so this type of thing doesn't happen again, or to anyone else.

We can sit here and argue back and forth for days about what the captain should or should not have done, but if you put your safety in others hands you are eventually going to get burned.

Using a negative entry on a back-roll puts your safety in your hands, and I would rather it be there, than in someone else's hands I do not know.