Running out of air- a perspective

[SC_Hoaty]

I'd say you had a "bone" to pick with me, but that spelling doesn't work either!

Thanks for the catch, NetDoc!

 

[jcfahy]

At the risk of re-stating the obvious OOA incidents may be related to several factors interacting and the diver may become confused over his or her priorities. A simple example is a diver who did not bring a buddy to the dive but acquired one on the boat - perhaps a dive leader. The same diver may run short on air, signal to the preoccupied dive leader of his situation and be faced with a choice of ascending alone - buddy violation but it happens all too often - or running too low on air to remain with the group. Some divers may make the wrong choice out of momentary confusion over priorities. IMHO the importance of self-reliance and continuous contingency planning in this context is not always appreciated - especially by less experienced divers.

 

[falcon125]

I believe the problem is in the lack of proper training by the instructors. Oboy theres a can of worms opening. I had a relative who took diving lessons some thirty years ago, who told me horror stories of what the instructors did to you in order to become certified. When I first wanted to take lessons and was making inquiries I was told "we will teach you survival". So time came I took the course, was prepared for what I knew was coming........but alas okay you're certified.......Huh? Yes I did all the skills, but in a controlled atmosphere, sure I could take my mask, regulator, etc. off and replace it, but on my terms. I expected my DI to rip it off/out when I least expected it. You know like would happen in real life. To gauge a "real" reaction, or how easy is it to help or be helped to share air when you both know its coming.
I believe its an okay lets certify everyone, not piss anyone off and give them their cards and bring in the next class. Ka-ching..
How can you react to any emergency situation if you don't know how "you" would react in an emergency situation. This is a MAJOR shortcoming on course leaders.
During a recent pool fun dive I was curious what it was like to actually run out of air. In a safe environment I intentionally let my air lapse..

Part of my recent pool training was for the instructor to turn my air off, so I could "Feel" the sensation of running out of air. They explained how the breathing would get more difficult and erratic. This was the "dont panic, revert to training moment"

What about the increased popularity of diving bringing a bunch of people into diving that really shouldn't be diving?

People who are not comfortable being in the water, who are so task overloaded by just breathing, looking at the surface and not floating up to it. What if the reason so many people roto-tiller is not because they got bad training, but because they are constantly looking at the surface due to not really being comfortable underwater, so you have to use a lot of weight 'cause they can't exhale all the way and fin for the surface all the time. Then it's very hard to move in bad trim and they are old and fat and they can't remember to look at their SPG every 5 minutes.

Should the people who perish after running out of air really have even been scuba divers?

:

Scuba Diving is not for everyone and can be a darwin experience for those in over their head. (pun intended) :depressed:

In my experience every single out of air diver that I saw was out of air because he or she was either not paying attention to air. That was because they were a diver who got certified years ago, have not dove since and traveled to a dive spot overseas somewhere, presented his out of date certification card and local dive operators took it for granted.

Realistically speaking I believe that active divers should be a little more involved in other diver's affairs and voice their opinions when necessary such as swimming up to new divers every once in a while and telling them to check their air supply.

Not all "old divers" who are casual scuba divers should be considered an increased risk. But I agree, All divers should look out for the others on the dive.

Skydivers have no problem giving a gear check to anyone on the load, and /or asking anyone their experience level. (you make more friends that way anyway)
If you have any question about the safety of other divers you should talk to them, feel them out and get to know them before they get in the water. (dont preach just say HI and make them aware that we are all in this together.)

As a New guy in this sport I would appreciaet (where's spell check?) all the help I can get.

 

[underwaterfrank]

Maybe someone already mentioned it, it did not go back and read the whole thread, but a lot of divers also don't realize that you can't use the last 150psi (10bar) in the tank because the valve in the first stage takes approximately that pressure to supply air to feed air via the intermediate pressure hose to your mouthpiece. (unless you're diving a single stage reg like the twin-hose variety). So, if you are silly enough already to allow your air to go that low, you will suddenly find that last little portion on your gauge is really not there for you to use.

 

[spoolin01]

If the dive industry wants to take OOA prevention seriously then there is an easy fix.
When I started diving we did not use a contents pressure gauge so no gas monitoring was needed. Cylinders were fitted with J valves, when the cylinder pressure dropped to 300psi the gas supply was cut off, you pulled a rod attached to the valve and the pressure was restored and you surfaced.
No OOA divers.
No deaths from OOA.
No blaming the buddy because he didn't save the idiot he was diving with.
If you want to be serious about saving lives then reintroduce the J valve.

The limitations of J-valve technology notwithstanding, I think the thought behind your suggestion could have some merit. How about technology that would provide a warning when pressure reached some limiting value? Like your gas tank idiot light, or the wake-up call from the front desk? Shouldn't be the only thing you rely on - though some will, so does that make it a bad idea? - but also would provide some helpful redundancy. Don't integrated SPGs do that? Wonder why the mechanical ones haven't evolved that way as well...

 

[knowone]

The thing with the J is that restricted breathing occurs quite quickly
and returns immediately upon activation.

The subject of accidental activation, I still remember, has been the same for decades, and I like it because because of it I generally gauge pretty well how long a tank will last and often check the lever, and knock on head, have NEVER found an activated valve, hold the lever when swimming through bushes and haven't done really rugged rough dives through forests with a J.

If you could activate the valve and reacquaint yourself with your air supply
having the same restriction to breathing, that would remember people to get to the surface.


The thing with a one tank J other than you really can't come up from depth
is that a snooze J would follow.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

:admingreet: Hello.. my name is Bowlofpetunias and I am a scuba diver It has been a very long time and several hundred dives since my last safety drill practice

I am old according to some standards, unfit and overweight. I was trained by the flawed system of the 90's... am I dead yet I was very uncomfortable in the water for my first 50 or more dives *pinches self* ouch... yep I am STILL alive

I learned in school how important air is for my body's survival. My Dive instructor didn't have to scare the heck out of me to get that message across. He did teach me CESA and buddy breathing but I never got the impression that OOA was not big deal as a result!

I have never been successful at going OOA. I have tried because I felt it would be a valuable experience to know what my reg breathed like.. how much warning if any etc. I advised my buddy of my plan to go OOA at the end of a dive in a "safe" environment but just couldn't force myself to do it Maybe my survival instincts are too strong

IMHO reasonable adults are responsible for their own decisions. If a person is dead set on taking their genes out of the pool they will find a way to do it! I don't think we need to scare the heck out of people who want to get into our sport! I don't think we need to create an elitist attitude based on number of certs/dives/bottom hours or Olympian bodies! We need to have a reasonable discussion about the risks, put together some plans to lower the risks, encourage people to dive within their limits and let adults make decisions for themselves!

Should the training be better? Of course everything can be improved on! Should we learn from other's mistakes? Of course that is better than making all the mistakes ourselves! People make stupid mistakes sometimes but that doesn't' make them stupid!

If I ever get on a boat with you I am not likely to give you my opinion on your life, your country, your gear or your diving unless you ask for it or something is blatantly dangerous. I would appreciate it if you gave me the same respect!

 

[underwaterfrank]

Thinking back on 25 years of diving, most of the time the people I have known to end a dive with zero or close to zero air left are usually the ones who were to proud and stubborn to admit they used more air than their buddies. Diver ego is the one extra attribute that should have its own gauge on scuba gear.
And of course the divers I have seen who came up with a buddy who had no air left were usually the ones who did not have the discipline to do regular gauge checks with their own buddies. Been there and done that, learned to be smarter after I had a buddy who ran out halfway through a 30 minute deco time after a 140 ft dive. When diving as a team, we all have our resposibilities, and that includes not being shy to go and ask your buddy what his or her gauges are indicating. At least every 5 minutes on a deep dive, maybe a bit less on shallow stuff. If you have a buddy who isn't open to sharing their air consumption...find other buddy.

 

[fonemant]

I think overall we have a fundamental difference of opinion of what the term "dive buddy" means, or is intended to mean ... because by no stretch of the imagination am I advocating diver dependency. Nor do I think that was ever intended to be a part of buddy diving.

Being part of a team does not imply dependency at all ... ask anyone who plays a sport like basketball, soccer, or baseball. It means understanding your role, how it fits in with the goals of the team and the roles of your teammate(s). Diving's no different ... there are roles and rules, and the purpose of those is to develop a framework for "predictable behavior".

The reality is that every agency advocates buddy diving ... and as long as that continues to be the case, I believe it is their responsibility to train people how to do it. It's one thing to say "here's what you should do" ... it's something else entirely to say "here's how to do it". The latter piece is seriously lacking in most recreational diver training ... and that's what causes people to make poor decisions when something unpredictable occurs.

"Dive buddy" means a lot more than just getting in the water with somebody. It involves mutual participation in the dive plan, active communication during the dive, maintaining an awareness of each other ... and most importantly, it means behaving in such a way that your dive buddy can anticipate what you're likely to do, can understand your communications and body language, and can react to unpredicted events in a way that doesn't leave you wondering what the heck they're doing.

None of that is rocket surgery ... or even particularly difficult. It works the same way as it would on any other activity you do that requires participation from other people.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm a brand new diver. I just finished my certification dive 2 weeks ago. My son and I, along with my brother and his son are going to Cozumel, spring break. My brother is certified Rescue, and has many trips to Cozumel w/much more experienced divers.
I say all of this to lead into my .02
I have followed this board for a few months and have greatly benefited from the collective wisdom, experience, and general good info. that this board has provided. I have noticed that most of the topics have a tendency to wonder a bit though.
When we hit the water for the first time, I will probably look at my new wisdom 2 computer continuously for the first 15 minutes due to nerves. Then when i realize that "I can" breath underwater at 65 feet, i will relax and start squirrling like my brother predicts that I will. I will still watch my computer, because that is how my instructor trained me. I will also be more comfortable knowing my brother is there to help if I need. Not just because he is my brother, but because like me, he was taught that buddy diving is safer. Everyone needs help sometime.
I think its is Murphys' law that makes it most likely you will need that help when you are by yourself (solo diving) or when you get a bad buddy, one that leaves you to surface, or looky loo.
In my newbie mind, the buddy system just makes safety sense. It is our own conceit that leads us to think diveing solo is ok. Just my opinion. No mater your experience you will eventually get into that situation that will land you into the Dan statistics article that lead to all of this.
Lastly, nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes. We can only thank God, when our underwater mistake happens that we make it to the surface safely, because no matter what you may think, ultimately he makes the decision.

Just my newbie .02 cents worth, but I do have brain.

If Necessity is the mother of invention,
Experience is the Father of Teachers

 

[Tortuga68]

We can only thank God, when our underwater mistake happens that we make it to the surface safely, because no matter what you may think, ultimately he makes the decision

To paraphrase, if you have a "jesus take the wheel" approach to crisis management, you probably shouldn't be diving