Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[Wookie]

I certainly misunderstood the point also. West Palm Beach/FLL is not Key Largo. If an exclusive dealer agreement for a shop in FLL includes all of south Florida, yet the South Florida shop can teach with impunity anywhere they want, that just isn't right. Say, for example, is it allowable for Add Helium to take a student to Grand Cayman for their trimix cert? Is Grand Cayman not a resort destination?Question: did rainbow reef apply to be a Revo training facility?

 

[Doppler]

Off topic a little, but let me throw this into the mix.

I received an email a few weeks ago from a branch of the US government reminding me that it's time to refile a bunch of paperwork and turn up at the consulate for a face a face interview... My ITIN luckily remains in place... no need to reapply for that; and the same with my US bank account which remains registered with the Treasury Department because it belongs to a non-resident alien... and of course my finger prints and a retinal scan remain on file with the FBI, CSIS, et al.

This is all because I wanna continue to teach south of the border... and I don't mind conforming at all.

SO, what exactly does a US citizen have to do to teach in Grand Cayman... or Mexico?

Just curious.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I understand and can support sales territories, but it is an absolute garbage policy if certain sales areas can be readily invaded by foreign instructors, but other areas are off limits.

I for one am happy NetDoc posted this. I wouldn't even really label this as Florida politics. Politics implies a bickering disagreement on certain viewpoints which can never be resolved and/or "proven". This is bringing to light a policy of the manufacturer that some people take issue with (like what someone needs to do for Scubapro's parts for life deal).

If what NetDoc and Jim have posted is true (and I see no issue why it isn't). Then it has certainly colored my opinion of Revo.

Luckily there is a robust market of high end rebreathers...guess which manufacturer will not be getting my money in a year or two.

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

Anyone making their choice of a rebreather based on industry politics will be making a poor decision.

The rEvo is the most innovative rebreather on the market with many other rebreathers being a variation of similar theme, with very little innovation other than few marketing gimmicks attached. The rEvo has one of the best safety records that just can’t be ignored due to the innovative design and Pauls philosophy regarding rebreather training. If more rebreather manufactures adopted Pauls training philosophy and took a more hands on approach then the whole rebreather industry would have a greatly improved safety record.

Quite frankly I find Pauls approach refreshing within the diving industry, and applaud him for it. Contrast that with the Poseidon Discovery where a diver can go from zero rebreather experience to an instructor on the Disco in less than 50 hours (I think it can be done in 25 if you are a dive shop owner and stock Poseidon), I just shake my head and it’s just shameful. When you purchase a rEvo you will be getting an instructor that meets the very high standards expected of them by Paul, and you won’t be getting any “Johnny come lately” instructor, this may put a few noses out of joint (and has obviously done so).

I have had my rEvo for three years and approaching 250hrs on the unit, after doing my research it was at the top of the list followed by the JJ, I did a try dive on the rEvo and based on that made my decision to purchase one. I have since had a chance to look closely at most of the major rebreathers and tried a few including the JJ, combined with the great customer support Paul provides along with the Australian agent I thank my lucky stars I chose the rEvo.

Paul keep up the great work!!!!

 

[paulraymaekers]

you see... a discussion like this on a forum is Always unfair, because people base their opinion on what they think they know, but forget about what they don't know.

sometimes you cannot give all information out, there are reasons. the information that got out here is both incomplete, and not correct.

i will just for completeness add what is forgotten here: (and I will not get sucked in a pro-con)

1 main rule is: you don't go for fisching clients, (students, unit sales) in others territory (the units that are in north Florida are not for north Florida people, they are for clients from other states coming down to do their training)(there was zero advertising to norht Florida people)

2 you take care of your own territory, so you are successfull there: you advertise, do trydives, promote

3 you don't relocate, leave your own territory, and start a business in someone else territory, surely not where the local dealer has done a lot of work to promote, and open up the market

4 an instructor that leaves his own territory, (having neglected completely to work for his own territory, advertising, trydives), to move into someone elses garden, and try to pick the hanging fruits, that is 100% against our agreements

the operation, where all 3 people involved work now, has made it 100% clear what the goal is: trying to get a nice chunk of that market

anybody that feels that I should not hold this position? it would just be unfair for the people that do efforts in this business!

 

[CptTightPants21]

you see... a discussion like this on a forum is Always unfair, because people base their opinion on what they think they know, but forget about what they don't know.

sometimes you cannot give all information out, there are reasons. the information that got out here is both incomplete, and not correct.

i will just for completeness add what is forgotten here: (and I will not get sucked in a pro-con)

1 main rule is: you don't go for fisching clients, (students, unit sales) in others territory (the units that are in north Florida are not for north Florida people, they are for clients from other states coming down to do their training)(there was zero advertising to norht Florida people)

2 you take care of your own territory, so you are successfull there: you advertise, do trydives, promote

3 you don't relocate, leave your own territory, and start a business in someone else territory, surely not where the local dealer has done a lot of work to promote, and open up the market

4 an instructor that leaves his own territory, (having neglected completely to work for his own territory, advertising, trydives), to move into someone elses garden, and try to pick the hanging fruits, that is 100% against our agreements

the operation, where all 3 people involved work now, has made it 100% clear what the goal is: trying to get a nice chunk of that market

anybody that feels that I should not hold this position? it would just be unfair for the people that do efforts in this business!

Now we are getting a little more meat of the issue.

Points 1 and 2 have to deal with advertising and a dealer network that I can agree with. You mention the units in N. Florida being for people out of state and "no advertising was used to get them there". How is that different than what Jim was trying to do in Key Largo---people contacting him from out of state based on his name (no advertising) and wanting to do training in Key Largo (or any part of Florida)?

Seeing as Jim is associated with Rainbow reef and we are talking about three instructors, I am beginning to get a clearer picture where the "advertising" in another person's sales territory COULD come up. And a little elaboration on what you think they did or what is considered advertising would be nice.

I am sure both sides are guilty of one thing or another. I think the issue is a little exasperated based on how small the dealer network is and how much land is allocated to each one. Florida has a lot of diving opportunities, in the N. Florida vs S. Florida debate you have severally weakened Jim's land by calling cave country a dive destination and allowing other instructors to teach there while at the same time giving Add Helium Ft. Lauderdale/Pompano/Jupiter/Miami/Florida Keys/rest of South Florida---that's a lot of prime diving real estate given to only one shop.

I think 1 of 2 things would be fair, either make the Florida Keys into a third dealer network region and have someone buy it or declare it a dive destination like Cave Country and allow a few instructor (who you apparently do an excellent job of picking and selecting) the option of teaching there.

Paul, you didn't bring this fight out into the public forum, I understand that. But all the names are basically out there now, you are going to have to go into more specifics on your point of view and what you believe the other side has done. But simple question, If I called up Jim right now and wanted to do my Revo training in Key Largo, could I?

 

[The Chairman]

you see... a discussion like this on a forum is Always unfair, because people base their opinion on what they think they know, but forget about what they don't know.

Paul, Open discussions on an open forum are the very definition of fair. I have made no attempts to slant the discussion other than by expressing my opinions. Unlike other forums, I don't censor by banning people I don't like or won't do business with me. As someone in the market for a rebreather, I'm actually giving you important feedback on why I'm now excluding your unit from consideration. You're free to Ignore that feedback, but others might find it useful. Then again, they might find you or others more reasonable. Like I said, it might not be convenient, but it Is fair.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

(the units that are in north Florida are not for north Florida people, they are for clients from other states coming down to do their training)(there was zero advertising to norht Florida people)

I do not know who these units are for. However that is not my point. My point is that this instructor is allowed to teach in my territory, but I am not allowed to teach in Key Largo.

an instructor that leaves his own territory, (having neglected completely to work for his own territory, advertising, trydives), to move into someone elses garden, and try to pick the hanging fruits, that is 100% against our agreements

That is an unfair representation of the facts. I have had revo ads on both of my websites, on this forum, on Facebook and have paid monthly fees to a Google AdWords campaign for several years advertising revo. Those ads were removed per your request since they were perceived by revo as invading another guys' market.

anybody that feels that I should not hold this position? it would just be unfair for the people that do efforts in this business!

I have stated here and elsewhere that I feel you have the absolute right to run your business the way you see fit, so long as it is fair and promotes fair business practices. Allowing instructors to teach in my territory, while restricting my ability to teach in theirs is unfair.

The very fact there are three revos in their shipping crates at cave country dive shop, (three miles from my house) for a class to be taught in my territory when I am prohibited from even teaching a class in Key Largo makes my point that the way it is setup is unfair.

It would be great if it could be justified that if: I have an exclusive market in North Florida why it is allowed for others to come in and teach in my market, while at the same time I am not allowed to come in and teach in another persons' market.

I am simply reporting the facts, and have only asked for justification for the reason I may not teach revo in Key Largo, while others can teach in my backyard.

 

[oya]

A complete hypothetical not at all based on a real person:

A committed instructor who takes pride in their work as an instructor and works hard to be good at it. This person loves their rEvo, talks it up at every possibility and spreads the rEvo gospel as broadly as they can. Loves teaching the rEvo to share their love of the machine.

They move to an area, not to steal market share, just because it's a nice area, where someone else is the dealer... It seems their options are
A) Work for that dealership, no matter what else their employment practices are, if they are even hiring, or if they are 100 miles away from their new home.
B) Stop teaching on the unit they love.

I call BS.

 

[paulraymaekers]

I do not know who these units are for. However that is not my point. My point is that this instructor is allowed to teach in my territory, but I am not allowed to teach in Key Largo.

we had this discussion many times before, so I can only assume that you now started this post just to 'push' me, using a public forum, or for slander..

the big difference here, is that you practically moved out of north Florida, and started a new living in someone elses area, started promoting your business there (as you state in your post, the add's that I asked to remove!).

its not about training in an area, it's about 'taking over the clients' of that area

until you moved, there has never been a problem regarding training on other locations, it went all fine, never a discussion

I understand that you wanted a change in your life, but that does not mean that now everybody has to be happy with that change.

when you started, you knew 100% what we agreed, as do all rEvo instructors. you understand 100% why what I do is fair.

if it is still no clear for some posters, read my previous post again, the rules we apply and that are known by everybody