RMV math…

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If you know your RMV, this calculation is very easy. I usually dive solo. I calculate my pony requirement for a minute at depth to figure things out, a normal ascent, and a 3 min safety stop, all at twice my average RMV.

A 3 liter pony is close to 19 cu ft. I can do my calculated ascent, as described above, from 130 ft with about 16 cu ft, leaving me with just under 500 psi and 3 cu ft left in my pony. I'm very rarely diving at 130 ft.

Anyone can do the same calculations.

I have my RMV for my last 1792 dives, 0.36 +/- 0.04 cu ft/min (mean +/- std dev) under a whole variety of diving conditions. 95% of my dives are between 0.28 and 0.44 cu ft/min. 0.44 cu ft/min is a very strenuous and/or cold dive.
Really need this translated into internationally understood numbers!
  • 0.36 cf = 10.19 litres/minute
  • 0.04 cf = 1.13 litres/minute
That's a nice low gas usage example meaning that a 3 litre pony may well work... IF: not stressed, not hanging around deep, etc. The get-the-hell-out-of-Dodge scenario will differ greatly from that.

Related is the calculation of bailout gas for a rebreather -- essentially a larger PONY. For this we use the worst case scenario which is a CO2 hit. In essence this means using 3 times your normal SAC for a few minutes (you have to make your own mind up with your own personal risk assessment). It's as scary as hell how quickly you get through your gas at depth.
 
Really need this translated into internationally understood numbers!
  • 0.36 cf = 10.19 litres/minute
  • 0.04 cf = 1.13 litres/minute
That's a nice low gas usage example meaning that a 3 litre pony may well work... IF: not stressed, not hanging around deep, etc.
Thanks for the translation, I often give both imperial and metric units, sometimes I'm just lazy. I use twice my average RMV and include a minute at depth, a very common adjustment.
 
Tell me where in the PADI OW manual it discusses SAC calculation.
It is not in the OW manual. You said it is not part of recreational diving, but there are a lot of other PADI recreational courses.
 
Wibble has pointed out correctly that that an individuals SAC rate can vary and that sometimes he uses an extremely safe multiple of his "normal" SAC rate in his gas consumption predictions. He then goes on to describe underwater difficulties that can greatly increase gas consumption. In all this he is correct. BUT it also supports my argument that calculating a dives gas consumption based on SAC is no more reliable (hence not necessary) than having a general idea of how long a cylinder should last for the expected dive profile, regular monitoring for deviation and knowing how to respond to deviation.
On Wednesday I am flying to Tenerife for 11 days. It is not practical to take tanks, even a 3L pony. I expect all the dives to be on air, 12 or 15L tanks with a max depth of around 35m. There will not be a single mention of SAC or RMV. I expect there to be between 3 to 5 divers who I have dived with before and a number who I have never met. There will be a bit of discussion on whether our air consumption is usually high or low and what will be the procedure if someone gets low early. After a dive or two we will buddy or group with those of similar air consumption and future dive plans will have different options for the different groups. If its a wall dive those better on air will move along the wall at 25 to 30m, those worse on air at about 20m and so on.
 
Really need this translated into internationally understood numbers!
  • 0.36 cf = 10.19 litres/minute
  • 0.04 cf = 1.13 litres/minute
That's a nice low gas usage example meaning that a 3 litre pony may well work... IF: not stressed, not hanging around deep, etc. The get-the-hell-out-of-Dodge scenario will differ greatly from that.
I understand where you’re coming from with a 3l pony. When I was pushing the limits of a 15l, there were thoughts of a 3l pony. Ended up with a 10l pony and swapped the 15l for a 10l, as the 3l didn’t really work beyond 40m.

The only time I can get remotely close to 10l/min is on follow the leader holiday dives. Closer to 20l/min when batting around UK wrecks.
 
Wibble has pointed out correctly that that an individuals SAC rate can vary and that sometimes he uses an extremely safe multiple of his "normal" SAC rate in his gas consumption predictions. He then goes on to describe underwater difficulties that can greatly increase gas consumption. In all this he is correct. BUT it also supports my argument that calculating a dives gas consumption based on SAC is no more reliable (hence not necessary) than having a general idea of how long a cylinder should last for the expected dive profile, regular monitoring for deviation and knowing how to respond to deviation.
On Wednesday I am flying to Tenerife for 11 days. It is not practical to take tanks, even a 3L pony. I expect all the dives to be on air, 12 or 15L tanks with a max depth of around 35m. There will not be a single mention of SAC or RMV. I expect there to be between 3 to 5 divers who I have dived with before and a number who I have never met. There will be a bit of discussion on whether our air consumption is usually high or low and what will be the procedure if someone gets low early. After a dive or two we will buddy or group with those of similar air consumption and future dive plans will have different options for the different groups. If its a wall dive those better on air will move along the wall at 25 to 30m, those worse on air at about 20m and so on.
Guided dives are controlled by the heaviest gas consumers or there is a mechanism for them to ascend early. This is not gas planning. I never limit my group with regard to gas consumption. Planning your dive applies to independent dives where you and/or your dive buddy(ies) have to plan your own gas use to successfully execute your dive. I'm not at all sure you ever do that.
 
It is not in the OW manual. You said it is not part of recreational diving, but there are a lot of other PADI recreational courses.
This all leads back to where I made my initial post which I still consider valid bearing in mind it was in the basic scuba section. I probably would not have made such a post in the advanced or technical section. However I still have a view that is difficult to explain in a way that will not be misinterpreted. The impression given by the posts in that basic section was you you should know your SAC exactly and calculate your dive on that. My view is that early on in your dive career it is just as valid to know how long you can expect to dive various profiles on a given cylinder size and bar.
 
Doesn’t the PADI Deep Diver speciality course cover SAC and redundant backup gas?
 
Guided dives are controlled by the heaviest gas consumers or there is a mechanism for them to ascend early. This is not gas planning. I never limit my group with regard to gas consumption. Planning your dive applies to independent dives where you and/or your dive buddy(ies) have to plan your own gas use to successfully execute your dive. I'm not at all sure you ever do that.
Very occasionally I dive solo but I prefer not to just in case I have a medical issue. Quite often I dive with just a buddy or two and we take turns leading / navigation. Our gas planning consists of letting the other know when we are at pre agreed cylinder pressures, typically 150, 120, 100, 65, 50. We usually max the dive time according to the lowest bar or first NDL, if necessary incurring a long surface swim. Quite often there is a guide but they may be for up to 16 divers, they are more like a divemaster who leads the weaker group. We may all gather at the bottom of the shot line or descend as separate groups. Common to do part of the dive as one big group then separate. We plan our dives based on underwater features or maps and how far we should get on a cylinder. We do not use SAC calculations. You only need a "photographer" to hang about or someone to fin at 0.2 m/sec too fast and any gas calculation is up the creek anyway. One time the boat was going to a place we had been before so me and a buddy asked if we could be let off the boat about 3/4 of a mile from the jetty. Other than knowing the depth was unlikely to much exceed 20m, and the house reef adjacent to the jetty, we knew nothing about the dive, we just followed the contour at about 18 to 20m and turned left at 80 bar until we came across recognizable parts of the house reef. I plan to do the same next year except from the north east. I am quite happy to dive without a plan, just get off the boat and drift with the current seeing whatever we come across then surface when air gets low. hopefully the boat will have followed the bubbles, if not there is always the smb and or a long surface swim. I have attached a screenshot of probably my favourite dive site, You just head south and play about until you gas get low then head north.
 

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