Right tanks for first doubles?

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There's no huge rush, but I figure if I can get it narrowed down to a few tanks of the same diameter maybe I can start looking for a deal on bands or a manifold to fit that profile while I'm still here, then chisel out the finer points of exactly which cylinders to buy after I try them out or get some first hand advice.
There are a lot of possible tank selections and while there are some odd ones that may be personal favorites, in general there are only a few that really make sense.

They are arranged below in order of both empty weight and capacity in terms of a North Florida 3600 psi cave fill.

1. Worthington X7-100s. - They weigh 33 pounds, are 24" tall, 7.25" in diameter and are -2.5 buoyant when empty. They hold 99.5 cu ft at 3442 psi and hold 104 cu ft at the same 3600 psi you normally get in north florida.

2. Worthington LP 85s - They weigh 34 pounds, are 25" tall, 7.25" in diameter and are -0.7 buoyant when empty. They hold 82.9 cu ft at 2640 psi but hold 113 cu ft with a north florida cave fill of 3600 psi.

3. Faber LP 95s - These are one of the gold standards in cave country. They weigh 37 pounds, are 24" tall, 8" in diameter and are -1.2 buoyant when empty. They hold 95 cu ft at 2640 psi but hold 130 cu ft with a north florida cave fill of 3600 psi.

4. Worthington X8-130s - They weigh 43 pounds, are 25.5" tall, 8" in diameter and are -2.0 buoyant when empty. They hold 131.4 cu ft at 3442 psi and hold 137 cu ft at the 3600 psi you get in Florida.

5. Worthington LP 108s - They weigh 46 pounds, are 26.5 tall, 8" in diameter and are -2.6 buoyant when empty. They hold 108.6 cu ft at 2640 psi but hold 148 cu ft with a north florida cave fill of 3600 psi. LP104/LP108s are the other North Florida gold standard.

There are other tanks but they are either very tall (LP 121, X7-120) or very short (X7-65, X7-80) creating potential trim issues unless you are also very tall or very short, or they are just not available (PST) or offer no real advantage over the tanks listed above (LP 77, Faber 72, Worthington LP 95, PST LP 95, X8-119), or have objectionable buoyancy traits (Faber 100, Faber 120), or are excessively heavy (basically anything ever made by Heiser). Some divers may swear by one or more of the tanks mentioned in this paragraph and have specific reasons, but they lack the general utility of the 5 listed above.

Comparisions:

If you compare the X7-100 with the LP 85 it is obvious they are similar in size, weight and cave fill volume. The LP 85 has a slight edge in volume when you can get a cave fill and the X7-100 has the edge everywhere else outside of North Florida where you can get an honest 100 cu ft without an overfill.

Similarly, the LP 95 and X8-130 offer similar cave filled capacities with the Faber LP 95 having a slight advantage in N. FL with lighter weight but slightly less volume, while the X8-130 can get 130 cu ft without an overfill everywhere else. It is worth noting here that Worthington or PST LP 95's weigh 42-43 pounds and offer no weight advantage at all over the X8-130.

The LP 108 is the heavy hitter in terms of capacity if you can get a cave fill , but if you can't it offers very little more gas than the X7-100 that weighs 13 pounds less.

Does size matter?

Not as much as you'd think. The size of your tank does not really matter if your team mates do not have equally large tanks.

Why? Because most technical divers use a thirds rule for gas management with 1/3rd being used going in, 1/3rd being used to exit and 1/3rd always being held in reserve. In addition, technical dives also match their gas so that the "third" they use is the same volume as the third used by the diver with the smallest tanks in the team. This is to ensure that any "third" in the team will be adequate to get any diver in the team back out.

So in the real world, if one diver on the team is using cave filled double LP 95s with 260 total cu ft and a third volume of 86 cu ft, that is the controlling volume for the other diver with cave filled double LP 108s with 296 cu ft total cu ft and 98 cu ft thirds. The extra 12 cu ft in the larger "third" is of no use, and is in any event only 12 cu ft more gas despite the extra 18 pounds of tank weight that must be carried. So unless your buddy also has large tanks, a large tank offers you no real advantage to offset the extra weight and bulk.

Now...that may change if you someday begin making very long multi-stage cave dives and if you manage your stages with a 1/2 plus 200 gas plan where you carry all of your reserve in your back gas. In that case, the larger LP 108's do provide a potential 296 cu ft of reserve gas as opposed to the 260 cu ft allowed in cave filled LP 95s. That extra 36 cu ft then allows for another 72 cu ft in stage gas - basically two more AL 80 stages using the 1/2 + 200 gas management strategy.

For offshore wreck diving, X7-100s and X8-130's are probably the best options given that cave fills are harder to find. The 130s offer more gas (262 cu ft compared to 199) but are heavier - a potential issue when trying to come up a boat ladder in 6 ft seas. And if you need more gas with the smaller tanks, a stage with bottom mix is a viable option.

For example, if diving X7-100s you would take an AL 80 and breath it down to 100-200 psi, then finish the dive on backgas, but keep 1/3 rd of the total of 280 cu ft (93 cu ft) in reserve, and turn the dive at 3200 psi rather than 2300 psi. giving you 93 cu ft thirds rather than the usual 66 - and more than the 87 cu ft thirds offered by the larger 130's. You end up carrying more weight with the extra stage bottle, but the difference is only about 15 pounds when you consider the lighter backgas tanks - and you only carry it on those few dives when you really need the extra gas as opposed to carrying larger and heavier 130's on all your dives.

So unless you are doing crazy deep dives near the practical limit of OC or almost always need more than 200 cu ft of backgas, really large tanks are again not offering you all that much more advantage.

Hope that helps. It is not rocket science but many divers don't really think it through and succumb to the bigger is better argument even though they rarely if ever use the extra gas they offer. You are far better off trying different tanks and finding tanks that work well for you in terms of weight and trim, are within your physical limitations, and are compatible with the tanks your buddies use.
 
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For what it's worth I'm putting together a set of "starter" doubles and decided to go with steel 72s, and a manifold and bands from piranha. The bands/manifold (their bands, blue steel 200 bar manifold) was about $225 shipped, and the LP72s were about $50 each shipped. Add to that hydro/vis ($35 each), and the total cost is about $400. That's the main reason I chose LP72s, but the other is that they're pretty close to neutral when empty and not too bad to carry around.

Even though the LP72s are more limiting than most other tanks, this way I can learn to dive with doubles pretty easily and I won't have much more in them than I could get for them used. When/if the time comes to upgrade to bigger tanks, I'll already have the manifold and bands, but more importantly, some experience to help me in picking the right size tank for me.

On piranha's recommendation, I bought 7.25" bands. They swear that the difference in tank spacing is negligible when assembled, maybe about 1/4" further apart at the most than using 7" bands. I'd like to hear some other opinions about that. They did agree to exchange the bands if I wasn't happy with them once I put it together. One thing I know is that the plates on the bands will be closer together, meaning the bolt is likely to stick out further towards the backplate. I'm expecting to have to get shorter bolts. Any thoughts on that?

Sorry for the hi-jack!
I have used 7.25" bands just because I had them sitting around but I found that how well it worked varied with the make of the bands. Some are just too large and leave the center pieces too close to gether for decent alignment and stability.

You will need much shorter bolts.

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They do work quite well for depths down to around 150'. With a decent SAC rate and 2475 psi fills, you can get bottom times of about 20 minutes on thirds compared to maybe 22-25 with double AL 80s. If you can pump them up to 2700 psi the volume is the same as an AL 80 but they are lighter and have better buoyancy traits.

I like them and have two sets sitting around that I use for many of my shallower dives.

The main disadvantage is that you cannot get two full lenght recreational dives in the 100-130' range out of a single set of double 72's as is the case with double 95s or double 100s, so you end up taking 2 sets along.
 
Thanks for the informative write up DA Aquamaster. Very thorough.
 
cheetah223:
I've considered the benefits of pairing up som AL80's, ... I figure it will be much easier to find a cheap used Al80, or even rent one and throw stage rigging on it, than it will be to get my hands on steel doubles.
Probably so.
cheetah223:
I'd like tanks large enough to get me through Tech1, possibly Cave1, depending if I find myself anywhere near caves. I would assume anything large enough to get me through tech or cave 1 would get me almost, if not all the way through full certification in either discipline?
Part of the solution depends upon your SAC rate, and diving style.
cheetah223:
I'm 6'1, about 180-190, and hope to be diving dry before long after returning home. I'm hoping to avoid picking up tanks that are going to be impossible for me to trim out properly, something that's going to have enough capacity to meet tech-1 level dives, and hopefully that will also offer enough capacity to make two shallow, rec-profile dives as well.
Double 80s will meet these specifications. But, if I were buying new tanks at this point, I would go with double 130s - plenty of gas, reasonable trim, good size for your height and weight.
cheetah223:
I was considering HP80's or LP108's, but since I'm new to doubles I'm really not sure how either of those would compare in useful volume to a pair of al80's - which I seem to remember someone here helped me decide were *just* barely enough to satisfy what I was after.
Double HP80s vs double AL80s, same amount of gas. LP 108s more gas, essentially equivalent to HP 130s, if overfilled. I see the issue as having two facets: 1) what is an easily accessible / obtainable set of doubles to start with and practice with, and 2) what is a useful set of doubles to pursue advanced training with? I started with double 120s, but primarily because I had two single 120s, and it was easy to double them up. The capacity met my needs easily through PADI Tec Deep (to 165'). They have plenty (more than I needed) of gas, but are a bit long for me (5'11"). My dive buddy (6'6") started with double 100s, for the same reason - he had them. He subsequently added (used) double 120s and double 119s. Neither of us care for the 119s. I subsequently bought two sets of double 80s, because someone wanted to sell them cheap. If you want a set of tanks that are fun to dive, that trim out nicely, are readily available (as singles), and relatively inexpensive, I can't think of a better set than double AL80s. Yes, I have to add weight when I dive them dry (~ 14 lbs, unless I add multiple deco bottles). But, they are, by far, my favorite recreational doubles set, and I routinely use them for dives to the 165' range. I have used them for trimix training dives to 190' as well. As DA said,
DA Aquamaster:
Douible AL 80's get bashed a lot (mostly by divers who have never dove them) but they are not bad starter doubles. With thirds and a decent SAC rate they will get you 25 minutes at 150 feet and are enough for decent but not great penetration in the average florida cave. The nice part is the learnign curve with them is shallow as they are not overly negative when full. The downside is you end up carrying weight to keep them under when they are empty.
Yes, they get bashed. Yes, you carry weight. Yes, you won't have a lot of bottom time at greater depths. But, I love them.
 
Thanks indeed for the write-up DA! I was really hoping to get myself set up before I got back home, but after everyone's advice it sounds like that would be nothing short of foolish..Guess I'll have to find someone to let me dive on some of their tanks and get a feel for it.

X7-100's sound pretty logical for me, but the price hurts haha. I was kind of hoping to avoid HP tanks for the price issue, so I'll probably be in a tossup between X7-100's and LP108's, depending how each work for me.

Thanks for everyone's advice!
 
I have to say this, never, never buy new. There are just too many sets of doubles on the used market. They are coming from divers who find that what they thought they want these sets for is not for them. The avg. life of a diver is about 5 years and I would guess that it is close to 90% are out by 10 years.

The other source are the divers going to rebreathers. Rebreathers are not for everyone, but they are a great tool that makes the "big dive" much easier from a logistical view point. Just being able to set up 1 to 3 sets of 30-40 foot tanks is way easier then up to god knows how many sets of doubles and stages for the same dive.
 
I'm pretty sure if I were not going with LP72s for my first doubles set I would have scrounged around for used LP85s. The benefit for me with those is the 7" width (nice compact doubles set) and neutral buoyancy when empty, like the LP72s.
 
My first set of doubles was a set of steel 38's. In freshwater it takes 18lbs of weight to get neutral with a wet suit! Very bouyant. They are my favorite doubles and so easy to carry around....unlike my double 72's! I would rather dive them than a single any day. The really cool part is they were made in 1943 and still going strong. Tim
 
I second the suggestion to never buy a new set of doubles - especially steel. It makes little sense to to pay $800-$1000 for a new set when you can find a used set in excellent condition for $400-$600.

Another advantage of the 5 tanks listed above is that they are fairly commonly used, so they are easy to find used and also easy to sell on the used market if you decide they are not right for you. If you buy a used set of any of the above tanks at a fair price, you will also be able to sel them and get all your money back out of them if you decide to sell them compared to the 65-70% of the purchase price of a new set you'd get when you sell them used, or even less in the case of some of the odder and less popular tanks that are floating around.

I should add here that the the availability of used doubles has increased and the price decreased a bit over the last few years as 1. many divers are moving to CCR's and are selling off at least some of their doubles, and 2. Worthington has picked up the production slack left by PST decreasing the demand for used tanks by people how really prefer to buy new ones if they are available.
 
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Sometimes buying new makes sense.

I bought my X7-100s about three years ago. At the time I knew I would be diving them as singles, so I would need single valves, but I also knew I would eventually double them up. If I were to buy used, the best price I could find was about $650 for a set of X7-100s, and most of those were in cave country, which is far far away from me. Add in the cost for a couple thermo valves, hydro, visual and O2 cleaning, and it brought the price up to around $850, plus all the hassle.

I talked with my LDS, and they managed a pretty good price on the worthingtons, at $300 a pop, O2 serviced, and a free nitrox fill. When I finally doubled them up, I found a good deal on the Sea Elite manifold ($130 IIRC), and I got a really nice set of custom made bands from Victor for around $110. So with tax, it came out to around $880, plus I make my LDS happy. Maybe my LDS just gives really good price on the worthingtons, but it made sense for me to buy new.

Tom

PS-Victor makes some truly awesome doubles bands. Look up DetroitMudpuppy on the board, and PM him if you are interested in some very reasonably priced bands that are super nice.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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