Rgbm

[Diver0001]

Too many (sailing, bowling ... a sport?, hunting, etc.). Wife drew the line on taking flying lessons ....

Gotta watch out for that bowling....I've heard it's more dangerous than diving.... LOL

R..

 

[BigJetDriver]

So the articles on Ellyatt's site don't make any of you guys question how good it really is? Just wondering, because no one had any comments on the major problems he had after I posted that link.

-Austin

Austin,

A lot of folks are doing a lot of RB dives into the 300+ fsw range, and running heliox surface to surface using RGBM. Works quite well for us!

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Gotta watch out for that bowling....I've heard it's more dangerous than diving.... LOL

R..

Are you kidding? Bowlers have their own board:

http://www.bowlingfans.com/

Is chugging beer a sport ... forgot to list that one ....

 

[Doc Intrepid]

It's hard to grasp if the issues he is encountering apply at all to shallow dives (which to him is dives under 50 metres). His frame of reference is so different to what you or I would call diving that I'm not sure we can draw the parallel. I mean, the guy makes huge bounce dives with 26 stage bottles..... That's not diving in any sense that I can relate to.

Moreover, he says he's been bent every time he's used RGBM. There is a disconnect here because he seems to be one of the few (if not the only one). It makes me wonder if he isn't just particularly sensitive, which would be very ironic being the depth freak that he is.

I did find this quote interesting, however: "4. The bubble model hypothesis that by carrying out many ‘bubble controlling’ deep stops early in the ascent profile, negates
requirement to carry out long duration ‘slow tissue’ shallow water stops, is not confirmed by man testing evidence."

That's food for thought and an area where I think more scientific testing is needed.

Remember that Mark Ellyat initially used the RGBM sold by Abysmal, not the H-S version. They are different software products. AFAIK, there is still a lawsuit in the works where Ellyat is suing principals connected to what was formerly Abysmal or Abyss Diving. It's sort of turning the knife in the wound, IMNSHO, as Ellyat requested the software, was provided it for free, used it to conduct these massive, far-beyond-empirical-limits-dives, then turned on his benefactors and sues them when he gets damaged by the process. [No S*it? You had problems on a sub-900' dive? Go figure... Its obviously Abysmal's fault...] Based on what little I'm aware of, including Ellyat's own descriptions of the dives and some testimony from one of the former owners of Abysmal, Mark comes off as a dick. FWIW...

[/HIJACK]

 

[Diver0001]

Remember that Mark Ellyat initially used the RGBM sold by Abysmal, not the H-S version. They are different software products. AFAIK, there is still a lawsuit in the works where Ellyat is suing principals connected to what was formerly Abysmal or Abyss Diving. It's sort of turning the knife in the wound, IMNSHO, as Ellyat requested the software, was provided it for free, used it to conduct these massive, far-beyond-empirical-limits-dives, then turned on his benefactors and sues them when he gets damaged by the process. [No S*it? You had problems on a sub-900' dive? Go figure... Its obviously Abysmal's fault...] Based on what little I'm aware of, including Ellyat's own descriptions of the dives and some testimony from one of the former owners of Abysmal, Mark comes off as a dick. FWIW...

[/HIJACK]

I don't know Mark but your characterization doesn't really surprise me. Bruce Wienke is pretty headstrong too so that's bound to be an unstoppable force colliding with an immovable object.

Chris, unlike the others, seems like a pretty straight on guy. It's unfortunate to hear that he's getting bullied around in this. I didn't know that.

Interesting to me in this whole discussion is what the rest of the extreme deep crowd are doing. I saw the profile for the recent Gomes dive somewhere and it could have come (with some minor fiddling) straight out of Vplanner. (Ross said it didn't but I'd bet my family jewels that he peeked.... ).

In any event I'm left taking Mark's criticisms with a truck load of salt.

R..

 

[akscubainst]

Remember that Mark Ellyat initially used the RGBM sold by Abysmal, not the H-S version. They are different software products. AFAIK, there is still a lawsuit in the works where Ellyat is suing principals connected to what was formerly Abysmal or Abyss Diving. It's sort of turning the knife in the wound, IMNSHO, as Ellyat requested the software, was provided it for free, used it to conduct these massive, far-beyond-empirical-limits-dives, then turned on his benefactors and sues them when he gets damaged by the process. [No S*it? You had problems on a sub-900' dive? Go figure... Its obviously Abysmal's fault...] Based on what little I'm aware of, including Ellyat's own descriptions of the dives and some testimony from one of the former owners of Abysmal, Mark comes off as a dick. FWIW...

[/HIJACK]

Pretty much sums up what I've thought for quite some time as well!

DM

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Thanks for that link but I noted that:

I had used the RGBM algorithm many times before, both shallow (60-90m) and deep (120m-260m), contrary to Bruce Wienke's website I received DCS every time using the RGBM algorithm. Satisfactory results were obtained only after manually adding significant extra shallow decompression stops, usually in the order of hours of extra time. I have used the VPM a/b algorithms since they became available, also with similar results

He received DCS every time??? Would any other person stop after the first hit? Okay, maybe two?

Sorry for the hijack.

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks for that link but I noted that:



He received DCS every time??? Would any other person stop after the first hit? Okay, maybe two?

Sorry for the hijack.

There aren't many possibilities here:

1) It's not true and he has a hidden agenda
2) He's super sensitive to DCS and dosn't know where to draw the line
3) He's super sensitive to DCS, doesn't know where to draw the line and has a hidden agenda

Personally I think it's a pot-shot at Bruce Wienke and a bit of feather fluffing in the direction of Wienke fans like George Irvine.

R..

 

[ianr33]

Could somebody explain why RGBM has any relevance to recreational No Stop diving? RGBM has deeper stops than a Buhlman model,but if you are within the NDL you dont need any stops at all,so why worry what deco model you are following? (and saying "every dive is a deco dive" is NOT an explanation!! )

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Could somebody explain why RGBM has any relevance to recreational No Stop diving? RGBM has deeper stops than a Buhlman model,but if you are within the NDL you dont need any stops at all,so why worry what deco model you are following? (and saying "every dive is a deco dive" is NOT an explanation!! )

I'll leave it up to the tech guys to go into it but RGBM is not just for deep technical dives. RGBM is the next refinement to the whole issue of understanding how nitrogen affects the human body. The main difference from a layman's view is RBGM has deeper stops to off gas nitrogen versus the existing Haldane based tables which reqires off gassing at shallower depths (this is extremely simplied ....).

Maybe an example would be easer. Assuming an air dive to 100 feet for 40 minutes. On the old NAUI tables, you'll have to hang for 15 minutes at 15 feet. On RGGM, you have to stop 2min at 30 ft, 4 min at 20, 8 min at 10 for a total of 14 min. A slight difference in total deco time but the smaller bubbles are off-gassed at the deeper depths. Note that the RGBM also limits deco dives to two a day and requires a 3 hour surface interval between.

Note that the NDL limits for the above dive is 22 minutes on the old system and 20 minutes on RGBM.

Of course, you can use the newer revised algo's out there (Buhlman, et al) but I've never sat down and compared the stops for all the models but maybe someday I will ...

This is giving a headache :yleyes: