RGBM Implementation

[KLD]

Ninja,

Since this seems to be an item of interest, let me clarify
a few things, lest somebody gets a wrong picture.

I don't really care to pick on you, but anybody who emails
me asking if "helium needs to be included in calculations
for trimix", thinks "theory is good to all depths", purports
to "develop a theory of ICD" when it's been around
for 150 yrs and routinely addressed in professional diving
under simple minimization of countercurrent gradients
prescriptions (no SLAMS), thinks that all you have
to do on a 1000+ fsw dive is "get the ascent gradients
correct" to "allow anyone to dive 1000 fsw", tells me he
never "clicked" on mathematics but "likes physics", fumbles
numbers in book equations, etc, etc is pretty much in the
dark -- the scary dark on 1000 fsw dives.

Sorry I don't have the time to tutor you . Nor
take you through reinventing the wheel. It's
not a "hobby" to me.

BTW, the kind of inner ear hit Mark probably got on one of
his deep dives is common in the commercial world of helium
diving, results from isobaric gas mismatches and ingassing
overgradients, relates to gas switch stategies (not staging
algorithm), is routinely avoided by the prescriptions above
and occurs independent of deco staging (saturation, Haldane,
RGBM, TBDM, etc) invoked. In other words, completely
within ICD known for a century and a half, the deeper
you go and the larger gas gradients are on switches, the
greater the risk no matter how you stage. It's the switches.
Plus, detox switches at depths in the 400+ fsw range from
trimix back to nitrox are can be injurious to your health.
That's old knowledge, so maybe avoid reinventing ICD?

This has been also passed back to Mark in a number of
exchanged emails.

Cheers and best wishes,


BRW

Actually the idea is to come up with a model that allows anyone to dive to 1000' and come back safely to the surface without a DCS or ICD hit. I have contacted BRW directly and also since then been in contact with others in the industry who have contrasting ideas on the validity of his model.

I have also since found out that the people I am and will be working with are somewhat at odds with BRW and while I am personally only interested in the purely technical side of the issue I will have back away from that one for a while.

The model we are working on was used for the last 1000' dive and the person concerned came back safely and in good health. Patrt of this has something to do with a solution to the ICD issue and we will be working on the mathematical support for the practical steps used.

The interest in RGBM was for comparison purposes. Part of our research will be looking at the underpinnings of that model particularly w.r.t. deep dives. I have now found a good set of abstracts on the medical and physiological side of that model and have noticed some similarities in them when compared with the simplified versions of the equations published in BW's books.

I have also found some people who will support me with a breakdown of the RGBM and similar models for reference. My impression from BW was that he was too busy for any kind of collaboration and he has enough on his plate on related issues.

Since it is conceivable that I will be acting in some kind of support role both in and out of the water for similar 1000'+ attempts I have a personal interest in making sure that the dive plans used work and are safe.

 

[ninjamuzo]

BRW,

Since the results of what we are doing and working on will be dived by people like Mark, who I have since spoken to on one occasion, I am treating the subject with all seriousness.

As I mentioned I have since found materials that go into the subject of bubbles in depth including their growth and formation in the human body and non spherical bubble material. The information in these papers includes all the equations and how they are related together i.e. something that is useful to me.

Someone very famous once wrote that there was no such thing as a bad question only a bad answer. Since I don't need second order partial differential equations for this work I'll be fine on the maths and if I get stuck I'll have my partner, ex-Marconi engineer who worked on some very serious maths, to explain it to me.

Much of the work we are doing is related to allievating the physical effects of such a dive along with some mathematical models. I was hoping to include a comparison of the RGBM in this research and it may work out that way, but I have been told that "it is impossible to come up with a practical solution using just the materials in your books," i.e. there are some linking pieces missing.

As I mentioned in earlier mails, I don't care about the 'sides' of this issue from a conflict of interests viewpoint. I'm only interested in the science. My posts indicate a viewpoint or level of understanding at that instant in time, I move off that level quickly to the next one at the pace allowed by the information I receive or gather on my own.

This subject is one that very few people are interested in to any depth and I would have expected that all things being equal interest would be welcomed. Instead I am forced to go back to the original research materials from doctors and physiologists which is not necessarily a bad thing as it allows for a broader view on the subject as a whole.

I have no doubt that I will reach a level of knowledge in this subject that will be more than sufficient to examine existing materials and working with others possibly improve on them.

Since I have no personal interest in serving on committees, boards, or making profit from my research it allows me to be solution neutral and look at all approaches from the same viewpoint.

Cheers and Best Wishes to you as well,
JCH.

As always any spelling mistakes are copyright.

Ninja,

Since this seems to be an item of interest, let me clarify
a few things, lest somebody gets a wrong picture.

I don't really care to pick on you, but anybody who emails
me asking if "helium needs to be included in calculations
for trimix", thinks "theory is good to all depths", purports
to "develop a theory of ICD" when it's been around
for 150 yrs and routinely addressed in professional diving
under simple minimization of countercurrent gradients
prescriptions (no SLAMS), thinks that all you have
to do on a 1000+ fsw dive is "get the ascent gradients
correct" to "allow anyone to dive 1000 fsw", tells me he
never "clicked" on mathematics but "likes physics", fumbles
numbers in book equations, etc, etc is pretty much in the
dark -- the scary dark on 1000 fsw dives.

Sorry I don't have the time to tutor you . Nor
take you through reinventing the wheel. It's
not a "hobby" to me.

Cheers and best wishes,


BRW

 

[KLD]

N,

Be assured that "links" are in black on white in my books,
and none are "missing". Info comes out of published papers
in reviewed journals, so most would say you guys likely
don't know how to connect the dots? Nor implement
codewise. Judging from your email questions to me,
this would be no surprise, even after spelling out
the "steps" in the algorithm to you as I did.

Funny, I have received communications thanking me for
publishing RGBM in a succint, no frills, short monograph.
With all necessary equations. Must be flying by you,
having nothing to do with "second order differential"
equations" either.

Many (me too) are involved in deep diving, and the
subject of deep diving is an one of considerable interest
across many diving venues. Guess you don't know much
about commercial diving, military diving, exploration and
scientific diving, data collected, schedules used, and
probabilistic deco analysis applied? If you did, you wouldn't
make a statement like that. And BTW, OC is not the way
to do deep tech diving, in fact, it's the worst way. Try an
RB on heliox.

Doctors and physiologists figure heavily into all deep
diving "colloborations, too, and we work as one mostly.
Welcomed are "contributions" from professionals with
real medical, scientific, and diving experience across the
board. And the list of contributors and reseachers is long --
but no Ninjas on it the last time I looked.

Since you mention "profit" I assume that you are referring
to RGBM. If RGBM were a matter of $, one would NOT likely
publish info, details, equations, data, stats, tables, etc
anywhere. Especially since Mares, Dacor, Zeagle, Suunto,
Steam Machines, Plexus, HydroSpace, NAUI, ANDI, GAP,
ABYSS, plus others anonymous at this time, all have a
vested interest in it.

Fact is, all info is out there in journals, books, workshop and
conference proceedings, lecture notes, plus special
reports to the commercial, military, and scientific community
at large. And RGBM is part of a professional life and death
C & C Dive Team operation that is not "hobby". Particulars
are posted elsewhere on SB, plus comments about why
it's not distributed en masse.

But even if it were a $ matter, so what? Only junk is
free.

As far as your "not having any personal interest in serving
on boards and committees", I'll wager that you'll never have
to worry about it -- science, diving, medical, nor physiology wise.

But have fun diving, let everybody know what "new theory"
you think you have (re)discovered, and, above all else, be
sure to do some quality checks (data correlation) before diving.

And keep an open line to Air-Sea Rescue.

BW

BRW,

Much of the work we are doing is related to allievating the physical effects of such a dive along with some mathematical models. I was hoping to include a comparison of the RGBM in this research and it may work out that way, but I have been told that "it is impossible to come up with a practical solution using just the materials in your books," i.e. there are some linking pieces missing.

This subject is one that very few people are interested in to any depth and I would have expected that all things being equal interest would be welcomed. Instead I am forced to go back to the original research materials from doctors and physiologists which is not necessarily a bad thing as it allows for a broader view on the subject as a whole.


Since I have no personal interest in serving on committees, boards, or making profit from my research it allows me to be solution neutral and look at all approaches from the same viewpoint.

.

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear Readers:

We have read some exchanges from readers who wish to possibly develop their own diving tables. I believe that it is important for readers unfamiliar with table development that it is necessary to have a good data bank to make successful tables. Simply putting together equations for bubble growth and decay are not sufficient.

I get the impression sometimes that many believe that it is possible to completely describe bubble growth and decay from “first principles.” While that is a very noble enterprise, it is not possible currently. In addition, the records of many “clean” dives are not always of great value. What one also needs are the records of dives that did not work. To formulate a successful decompression system, Dr Weinke needed to expend considerable time and effort at assembling data about dives to many different depths and for many different times. When this is combined with more recent practice of mixed gases in the recreational world, one is talking about quite a feat. This should not be underestimated.

Dr Deco (on vacation this week).

 

[KLD]

Thank you, Mike.

BW

Dear Readers:

We have read some exchanges from readers who wish to possibly develop their own diving tables. I believe that it is important for readers unfamiliar with table development that it is necessary to have a good data bank to make successful tables. Simply putting together equations for bubble growth and decay are not sufficient.

I get the impression sometimes that many believe that it is possible to completely describe bubble growth and decay from “first principles.” While that is a very noble enterprise, it is not possible currently. In addition, the records of many “clean” dives are not always of great value. What one also needs are the records of dives that did not work. To formulate a successful decompression system, Dr Weinke needed to expend considerable time and effort at assembling data about dives to many different depths and for many different times. When this is combined with more recent practice of mixed gases in the recreational world, one is talking about quite a feat. This should not be underestimated.

Dr Deco (on vacation this week).