Resort's " New Normal " Rule - No AIR 2 or diving your long hose

[saxman242]

That is the concept of IFR vs CFR. If the denominator contains the total number of infected, instead of the total number of confirmed cases, than this ratio is the IFR. But the CFR is defined exactly as I reported, total number of confirmed deaths divided total number of confirmed cases.
Then we should discuss how many people are infected and not confirmed: I have no reliable data for US, but I see CDC estimates this ratio less than 2. Hence in their model a CFR = 0.4% transforms into an IFR = 0.26%.
Instead here in Italy we start having some reliable data (as known, we are almost one month ahead US in managing the epidemics), and the ratio is around 8-10 for the whole Italy, peaking at 35 for Bergamo province (the one with higher number of deaths per million inhabitants).
One of the sources of this info is here (from Berkeley university):
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.15.20067074v3.full.pdf
This means that here in Italy we have a number of confirmed cases actually equal to 229,858, and a number of deaths equal to 32785, making the value of CFR = 14.26%. But we know that the total number of infected is around 2 millions, hence the IFR is approximately best estimated around 1.58%.
I would be very, very happy to find data more favourable...

I understand that IFR and CFR are different values, but to use a CFR while testing is low doesn't tell a complete story. There's a reason that the CDC is attempting to calculated a "symptomatic case fatality ratio" rather than just counting cases.

It's also important to keep in mind that Italy's numbers may not be representative of the world as a whole due to differences in demographics, lifestyle, and how deaths are counted.

 

[Angelo Farina]

It's also important to keep in mind that Italy's numbers may not be representative of the world as a whole due to differences in demographics, lifestyle, and how deaths are counted.

That is definitely true, particularly for demographics (we have a lot of elderly people, living incredibly long lifes). And also for lifestyle.
How deaths are counted is a problem solved, if you read the Berkeleys' paper I linked: these guys defeated the problem looking simply at the excess mortality, and not relying to testing for assigning these excess deaths to COVID-19.
And they did find that Italian rates are surprising close to NYC data, the only US town which is "ahead" enough in the pandemic curve to provide data comparable to Italy:
Ok, there are a lot of Italians living in NYC; and this can explain partially the similitude of data, but my understanding of the whole paper is that those minimum boundaries found for IFR for different age ranges are general, and that real IFR can be 2-3 time larger than these minimum values.
Of course in a couple of months we all have much more reliable data.
In the meanwhile, I think that keeping a precaution principle is the safe thing to do.

 

[saxman242]

And they did find that Italian rates are surprising close to NYC data, the only US town which is "ahead" enough in the pandemic curve to provide data comparable to Italy

NYC has also made some policy decisions that have resulted in disproportionately high deaths compared to elsewhere in the US.

 

[The Chairman]

My point of view is that the diving restrictions are quite doable;

I don't think that would stop me from going either.

The problem is with vilifying those who 'don't get it'. It's quite easy to call them haters, but that only alienates them. Alienate my friends and you alienate me. Alienate enough people and you go out of business.

Some people are obviously upset by the new rule and have made assumptions about what is appropriate and what isn't. Why not work to alleviate those assumptions nicely? Rather than label them, why not tell us an easy way to donate? So, it doesn't say clip off the long hose, but how do you suggest they deal with it? Maybe you just want them to drag it in the dirt rather than clip it off. No??? Then give us an alternative. If this is 'well thought out' as you proclaimed earlier, then they have a solution. What. Is. It? Me? I would bungee my long hose instead of my primary. Possibly, I would use my super duper double reg bungee that I use for side mounting. A simple pull and it's free! They want solutions and not labels.

Who says "you" did?

You did. You were addressing me when you posted this:

and so you don't want to just assume it does and carry on.

I took the 'you' on its face value.

I take it that you're a fan of Buddy Dive. Good for you and them. Maybe they should weigh in here and tell us what they're actually thinking and how they want us to do it. We don't want to assume: we want to know. Ignore 'us' and lose 'us'.

 

[The Chairman]

They failed to think critically.

I'm going to disagree with this. Just because someone comes to a different conclusion or solution, doesn't mean they're thinking is flawed or missing. There are many reasons why anyone might come to a different conclusion than you. They're just as smart, just as informed and just as passionate. Yeah, they're just as reasonable too.

Let's not treat each other as enemies during this time.

 

[rsingler]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

At this point in a fascinating, well-discussed thread, might I ask several of you to just take a half hour break, and then come back? Passions are running a touch high, and a few of the arguments advanced recently are on the edge.
We're all in this together, even if not all of us are close buddies. This resort has made an interesting decision, and as with most new issues, all the facts are not in, and likely won't be until Bonaire reopens for out-of- town business.
A good discussion. Even about chumming the waters, lol!

---

 

[tursiops]

I don't think that would stop me from going either.

The problem is with vilifying those who 'don't get it'. It's quite easy to call them haters, but that only alienates them. Alienate my friends and you alienate me. Alienate enough people and you go out of business.

Some people are obviously upset by the new rule and have made assumptions about what is appropriate and what isn't. Why not work to alleviate those assumptions nicely? Rather than label them, why not tell us an easy way to donate? So, it doesn't say clip off the long hose, but how do you suggest they deal with it? Maybe you just want them to drag it in the dirt rather than clip it off. No??? Then give us an alternative. If this is 'well thought out' as you proclaimed earlier, then they have a solution. What. Is. It? Me? I would bungee my long hose instead of my primary. Possibly, I would use my super duper double reg bungee that I use for side mounting. A simple pull and it's free! They want solutions and not labels.

You did. You were addressing me when you posted this:

I took the 'you' on its face value.

I take it that you're a fan of Buddy Dive. Good for you and them. Maybe they should weigh in here and tell us what they're actually thinking and how they want us to do it. We don't want to assume: we want to know. Ignore 'us' and lose 'us'.

Your house, your rules.

 

[beaverdivers]

Aside from your misquote* of the rule, I suspect you could easily have found this if you cared to look:
From https://www.daneurope.org/c/documen...b88-05a1-408a-8e2b-b408af49c6b0&groupId=10103
View attachment 588035

*Nothing says "No AIR2/Tech rig usage while diving"; rather it says, you need an alternate other than an AIR2 to be able to donate to an OOG diver something that was not in your mouth, and you are welcome to use a tech rig, but the recommendation is to breath from your alternate so the long-hose reg is not contaminated. Also, this is all while supervised, not a general statement.

I appreciate you sharing this link. I have read the USA DAN info, but I hadn't seen this DAN Europe one. I found the 1 meter/3 foot distancing info interesting:
The WHO (World Health Organization) recommends that people keep at least a 1 meter / 3 feet distance from each other. This also applies to Dive Centre premises, including classrooms and changing rooms. In common areas, it may be useful to mark the appropriate distances on the floor, e.g. by using visible tape. In determining the correct distance, take into account the directions provided by local authorities, which may vary (e.g. 2m/6ft in UK, USA and Canada; 1.5m /5ft in Australia). Wherever possible, e-learning or remote teaching should be preferred to reduce face to face time in a classroom.

As far as sharing air, their recommendation was followed by:
PLEASE NOTE
Guidelines provided by dive training agencies on these subjects may vary. Make sure you know and respect the latest guidelines issued by your training agency.

I spoke with the head of training for TDI/SDI last week about this issue. She said it was up to the diver to determine the configuration of their gear.

Also, we have received a waiver for training. Essentially, we are just simulating the sharing air, so no regulator exchange takes place.

Again thank you for sharing this important information.

 

[StefinSB]

How are Italians diving on their back (because that seems they only way possible to not touch the ceiling according to AF) doing some weird scissor kick barf I to their reg? I have a picture in my mind and it ain’t pretty.

 

[beaverdivers]

Perhaps, this Dutch saying explains it all:
Doe maar Normaal, dan doe je al gek genoeg – Act normal, as that’s crazy enough