Rescue vs. advanced

[Jim Lapenta]

In my aow course there are no elective dives. I mandate the dives in it. There are also rescue skills in the ow and aow courses. The last dive in my aow is the buddy skills and assist dive. No mask swims, no mask air share swims and ascents, unconscious diver from depth, support diver at surface and tow whil stripping gear. And no one gets in the course with less than 10 dives post ow cert. I will also do a skill evaluation to make sure all basic skills can be done neutral, in midwater, and in trim before allowing someone in. But for those who don't want aow rescue is still an option. In fact the one group of rescue students I have set up for this season are better off doing it before aow. I can't fathom why agencies allow people to take aow without rescue skills. Give someone a card that will give them access to dives where a rescue may be more likely and not teach them how to handle those scenarios? Kinda dumb.

 

[jmasin]

If you take your Rescue with NAUI you don't need the AOW prerequisite.

Your complaint about AOW is a common one ... and I always wince when I read comments from people who complain that they didn't get much out of their AOW. There are some AOW classes out there with some real meat to them ... but mostly they're run by independent instructors who have decided that they don't want to teach fluff.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob thanks.

Sorry I brought up the money aspect, probably not appropriate for this thread.

I believe you when you say that AOW can be very good course. It's just what I've seen from offerings from PADI the subjects appeared a bit weak. I generally have an issue with the cert agencies on the # of dives required to get further certification.

I personally would not have considered myself qualified as an "advanced" diver after 20 (or 25) dives. I was still new and learning myself underwater. I wouldn't have considered myself qualified for a "master diver" after 50. I still have a lot to learn and a lot of hours to log. Yet had I gone through the courses I'd have received these labels.

I view the Rescue class as essential, and it is on my plan for this year. I think I'm at the stage that I can get a lot out of it (meaning I could have benefited earlier but I think I can wring even more out of it now).

Again, my experience is under 100 dives and only 45hrs bottom time, so I may look back and my comments one day as foolish

 

[RonFrank]

As a new diver it is the best time to take advanced. You do NOT have the skills to do rescue even if most shops will happily take your money.

At this point, you need to focus on breathing, buoyancy control and trim. The peak performance buoyancy is a good specialty if taught by a good instructor. I agree many of the specialties are a waste of time to varying degrees, for example Boat Diving... IMO. I bet Bob would make it worthwhile, but many instructors will just read to U.

I think NEW divers should do advanced right after OW. If you wait until you have 50 dives advanced may end up teaching you things you have already learned to do.

Rescue should be done once you can maintain trim and buoyancy without having to focus on that. It requires multi-tasking. If you can not maintain depth with your eyes closed (make sure you buddy is there and aware of what you a doing), work on that before doing rescue. PADI rescue requires advanced, and I believe a minimum of 20 dives. IMO it likely should be 40.

 

[Damselfish]

I believe you when you say that AOW can be very good course. It's just what I've seen from offerings from PADI the subjects appeared a bit weak. I generally have an issue with the cert agencies on the # of dives required to get further certification.

I personally would not have considered myself qualified as an "advanced" diver after 20 (or 25) dives. I was still new and learning myself underwater. I wouldn't have considered myself qualified for a "master diver" after 50. I still have a lot to learn and a lot of hours to log. Yet had I gone through the courses I'd have received these labels.

The names of the classes don't matter, especially in the case of "Advanced" and "Master" since they aren't. Who cares what label it results in, care about what it really is. What matters is that the class will be useful to you in some way.

It wouldn't make sense for someone to avoid taking Advanced because they don't think they have enough dives or skills to be labeled "advanced." It's still basically a beginner class and putting it off until you feel like you could consider yourself advanced is putting it off too long to be useful.

And as far as PADI "Master Diver" - this is only a label, so unless labels matter to you (or maybe you really need a goal like this to be happy) there is really no point in getting it.

 

[jmasin]

The names of the classes don't matter, especially in the case of "Advanced" and "Master" since they aren't. Who cares what label it results in, care about what it really is. What matters is that the class will be useful to you in some way.

It wouldn't make sense for someone to avoid taking Advanced because they don't think they have enough dives or skills to be labeled "advanced." It's still basically a beginner class and putting it off until you feel like you could consider yourself advanced is putting it off too long to be useful.

And as far as PADI "Master Diver" - this is only a label, so unless labels matter to you (or maybe you really need a goal like this to be happy) there is really no point in getting it.

Labels certainly don't matter to me, I didn't mean to imply that. I merely meant that achieving the label "Master" does imply some level of experience that I'm not convinced the average 50 dives get you.

I guess based on what you said, I did put them off too long and now many of the AOW specialties aren't useful.

Don't mistake me, I'm not claiming to be an expert by any stretch... I'm a less than stellar navigator and could use that, I could always use buoyancy improvement etc., and I would like to be qualified (knowledge wise) to penetrate wrecks.

As a freshly certified O/W diver I did make the conscious decision to wait on the advanced class, because at the time I figured I'd like to get a few dives under my belt first. This may have been the wrong decision, but it was the one I made, and I'd bet a fairly common decision.

 

[sled600]

I agree with Ron Frank. I am AOW...Have not done rescue yet. it is the next class I will take. Probably this summer...

AOW gets a new diver more dives with an instructor...No matter what the specialties are. These equate to time in the water!!

Since the op is still relativley inexperienced (like me). Time to learn how to dive and get comfortable is good.

Since Resuce is a class that involves doing things underwater much more advanced than looking at fish, one should be rather comfortable before taking it.
I would reccomend AOW before rescue (like I am doing) at this leveel of his diving career.

NOW....Had the op had 400 dives, I see Rescue as being the more practical and beneficial to be taking....

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

One has to be careful when looking at labels ... because they mean different things in different agencies.

In PADI, Master Diver is a recognition that you have taken a certain number of specialty classes. There's no additional training. In NAUI, Master Diver means you have completed the diving portion of the NAUI Divemaster program ... it's the highest level of training you can get at the non-professional level.

That said, it still only requires minimal number of dives, and in either of these programs even the best student will not be a "master diver" at the completion of these programs. At best, you'll be a "just starting to get comfortable" diver ... but that doesn't sound nearly as sexy, and is much too long of a title to fit on a C-card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

AOW gets a new diver more dives with an instructor...No matter what the specialties are. These equate to time in the water!!

This logic just doesn't do much for me.

First off, if you need more dives with an instructor, you shouldn't have passed OW! The OW class ... even the minimal one that most agencies now teach ... is intended to train you to dive independent of supervision in conditions similar to those in which you were trained.

It even says so right in the Standards manual.

So where's the need for "more dives with an instructor". That logic just comes right out and says that the instructor failed to meet the goals of the class.

This is WHY so many people are coming out of AOW saying that they didn't learn anything ... because the dives you attain in AOW effectively don't do anything except expose you to the things you were SUPPOSED to have learned in OW.

No one should ever walk away from a class feeling like they didn't learn anything. And by going directly from OW to AOW, you're setting yourself up for failure ... because you're going to be so focused on the things you were SUPPOSED to have learned in your OW class that even if the instructor tries teaching you something new, you won't have the mental bandwidth to deal with it.

AOW is supposed to be much more than just a few more dives with an instructor. It's supposed to be where you learn how to plan and execute more complex dives than the simple ones you were exposed to in the OW class. Following an instructor on those dives isn't going to teach you how to do them yourself ... but following the instructor is just about all the newly-certified OW diver is going to be capable of doing.

I refuse to teach a class like that. My expectation is that before a student of mine takes AOW, they will be comfortable with the basic skills ... in the basic conditions that they were trained. They will be fully capable of using those skills without a lot of conscious effort. That will take some diving between those two classes to accomplish.

Once in AOW, they're going to be learning a lot of new things ... and they need to be comfortable enough with the OW skills and knowledge to be able to build on it.

I've yet to meet the diver who can make that transition straight out of OW class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hollywoodivers]

Agencies aside, Rescue class is SOOO beneficial to diving, every diver should take it (along with CPR/1st Aid which is required for the rescue cert.) AOW is an introduction to the different aspects of diving and is a great way to gain experience with different types of dives under the watchful eye of an instructor, especially if you just finished your Open Water course.

So if you'd like to get more dives for experience, take the AOW.
If you'd like to dive safer right away and be able to hep your buddy, take Rescue class first. Then while you're doing your AOW you'll already know rescue skills while you are learning different types of diving.
Rescue class opens you eyes to your own safety and the safety of your buddy, which is invaluable.

Hopefully you'll do both as it's always good to gain more experience in diving with the help of an instructor so you're confident when you do dives on your own later.

 

[Damselfish]

As a freshly certified O/W diver I did make the conscious decision to wait on the advanced class, because at the time I figured I'd like to get a few dives under my belt first. This may have been the wrong decision, but it was the one I made, and I'd bet a fairly common decision.

oh, I agree it generally makes sense to get in some dives and have your act together before taking AOW. Was just saying everyone needs to look at the course contents before deciding if and when to take a class, rather than the names, because the names are pretty useless and mislead many new divers.