Rescue Diver Course - I can't recommend it based on my recent experience

[Diver0001]

EDIT: After reading Diver0001's last couple of excellent posts, something occurred to me. Do any rescue classes attempt to teach people how to organize personnel for a rescue? i.e. do any of the courses say to establish a "hierarchy" of sorts? In our Search and Rescue training for the SAR team I used to be involved with, that was a key to getting things done efficiently and thoroughly. One of the tasks, which Diver0001's posts got me thinking about, was basically PR. Handling crowds, and expectations of onlookers and non-active participants. Do any of the SCUBA rescue courses teach any of this?

Mine addresses the "management of the scene" as a direct result of the experience we had. One of the lessons learned we took from that was the there is a glaring omission in the course content for Rescue and "managing the scene", while given lip service, is far more essential to executing a successful rescue than people are taught. PR and crowd management are not something I go into in great detail. Managing and organizing other *divers* and/or other dive-pros who are at the scene and want to help is the focus.

I know one other instructor who does as well; however, it seems to be far from the norm. Happily few instructors have direct experience executing full blown rescues but as a result few *really* know what it involves....

R..

 

[fjpatrum]

Thanks, Diver0001. That's kind of what I expected to hear. I definitely don't remember reading more than possibly a couple of sentences about it in the rescue material I've read so far. I know, from land Search and Rescue, that it's something that requires a lot of real-world experience to truly understand and get right. Organizing people (other divers/non-active participants) to stay out of the way is just as important as actively performing the rescue skills, for various reasons.

The only SCUBA "rescue" I've been involved in was a surf-entry gone bad that didn't result in any physical injury or life-saving and really only included me, my brother, and the "rescuee". It could very easily have escalated, though, given we were on a crowded beach, and the obvious state of panic of the "rescuee" prior to getting her back to the beach.

 

[Cav]

Read OP and first page of responses.

My thoughts? As an inexperienced diver (Just OW and no more dives)

Sounds bloody brilliant. I can imagine how stressful that would have been. The thought of having my regulator snatched terrifies me; this is why I think that course is so valuable!

As you did, I feel it my responsibility to take the Rescue course as I'll be in the water with other people and want to be an asset. Not a liability. This will be one of, if not my first specialty.

Cheers.

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks, Diver0001. That's kind of what I expected to hear. I definitely don't remember reading more than possibly a couple of sentences about it in the rescue material I've read so far.

Yeah, this is the glaring omission I was referring to.

In section 3 (IIRC) of the book there is a whole section about how to 'manage the scene' but it's all too high level to put put into practice.

For example, one of the things it says is to "delegate" and it goes on about how good managers get things done by other people and that you can let someone else call 911 for you etc. etc.

But it doesn't go nearly deep enough into *what* to delegate and *how* to delegate.

Getting together a team of spotters, snorkeler(s) to control and render assistance on the surface, someone for crowd control, someone to cover who is getting in and who is getting out of the water (own the site), someone to coordinate with the EMS, someone to act as a "journalist" or historian, writing down what happened or as in our case to use a smart phone to make pictures and video, etc etc etc.

How you get a team like that put together from perfect strangers, get the right tasks delegated to the right people and get it done quickly ....

that's not in the book

it's not even CLOSE to being in the book.

It's also not something that is described as a scenario or a skill in the standards... but it *is* something that every rescuer needs to have *some* idea about because it can make the difference between a successful rescue and a botched one.

That's what I meant by a "glaring omission". The book is too high level and the standards don't dictate any kind of scenario to train this level of taking control.

Sounds like you had this kind of thing in your SAR training, which is good. It would be good, if you ask me, if PADI actually contacted and interviewed their members who hvae been present at accidents to start gathering lessons learned because while the rescue course is already good, it could be improved if the lessons learned were being studied.

The only SCUBA "rescue" I've been involved in was a surf-entry gone bad that didn't result in any physical injury or life-saving and really only included me, my brother, and the "rescuee". It could very easily have escalated, though, given we were on a crowded beach, and the obvious state of panic of the "rescuee" prior to getting her back to the beach.

Yeah, it's amazing how quickly incidents can escalate out of control if they're not managed well right at the start.

R..

 

[letterboy]

R, it sounds almost like there needs to be rescue 1 and rescue 2. Rescue 1 to teach how to be an asset and assist with rescues. With brief overview of how to run a rescue and intense skills practice (CPR, aed, identifying the different warning signs for incidents etc) and rescue 2 less on skills and more on how and what to do when, higher level managment course for rescues.

 

[Diver0001]

That actually doesn't strike me as a bad idea.

[big sidebar]

You know, in that rescue we preformed I sent my CA's into the water and stayed on shore myself to organize things. But I've been a professional project manager and "trouble shooter" (used to be called "crisis manager") for 25 years. I'm used to standing in the middle of the action and being the boss while people look to me for direction. I'm used to organizing people and I'm used to working on short deadlines and deciding what's important and what's not to get results.

In 10 minutes time I had all the EMS people (police, fire, ambulance) on site, a private boat standing by to take paramedics onto the water, a helicopter with trauma doctor, 2 teams of divers in the water searching, one on the surface taking control of the site, one person handling people coming and going out of the water and someone taking pictures for the police.

I would like to believe that the fact that my CA's are highly task oriented first class divers and found the victim quickly, and the fact that the very moment they surfaced there was a boat full of paramedics floating near by ready to go is one of the reasons the victim lived. It wasn't even our accident. We took control when the dive team responsible for that dive froze and didn't know what to do. In fact, their DM collapsed in the middle of it all from the stress and shock while we were still working and had to be taken away in the ambulance himself.

In some ways it was something I've been training to do for 25 years so when it happened I just went to work. Lots of people coming into a scuba course have real-world skills that can help them like this. We've had ER doctors, paramedics, firemen and policemen in the courses too and every one of them does this for a living.

But for the average person with no background in "being in charge" it's very difficult for them to step up to the plate when the **** starts flying. We do try to prepare them for that but you're right, it can be a big stretch.

Just playing on your idea, I think it might make sense to give the "being in charge" part of the rescue course more emphasis in the Divemaster training. once you're trying to become a DM you *should* be able (or at least willing) to take charge in an emergency. It could be a massive improvement to the DM course.

In the Instructors course you go through all that rescue stuff again but it's still not detailed enough. That's another point during the training, when the diver should not only be ready and willing but also ABLE to take charge, where managing the scene could be given the air-time it deserves.

Splitting it into two modules could be a pretty good idea.

R..

 

[letterboy]

That actually doesn't strike me as a bad idea.

[big sidebar]

You know, in that rescue we preformed I sent my CA's into the water and stayed on shore myself to organize things. But I've been a professional project manager and "trouble shooter" (used to be called "crisis manager") for 25 years. I'm used to standing in the middle of the action and being the boss while people look to me for direction. I'm used to organizing people and I'm used to working on short deadlines and deciding what's important and what's not to get results.

In 10 minutes time I had all the EMS people (police, fire, ambulance) on site, a private boat standing by to take paramedics onto the water, a helicopter with trauma doctor, 2 teams of divers in the water searching, one on the surface taking control of the site, one person handling people coming and going out of the water and someone taking pictures for the police.

I would like to believe that the fact that my CA's are highly task oriented first class divers and found the victim quickly, and the fact that the very moment they surfaced there was a boat full of paramedics floating near by ready to go is one of the reasons the victim lived. It wasn't even our accident. We took control when the dive team responsible for that dive froze and didn't know what to do. In fact, their DM collapsed in the middle of it all from the stress and shock while we were still working and had to be taken away in the ambulance himself.

In some ways it was something I've been training to do for 25 years so when it happened I just went to work. Lots of people coming into a scuba course have real-world skills that can help them like this. We've had ER doctors, paramedics, firemen and policemen in the courses too and every one of them does this for a living.

But for the average person with no background in "being in charge" it's very difficult for them to step up to the plate when the **** starts flying. We do try to prepare them for that but you're right, it can be a big stretch.

Just playing on your idea, I think it might make sense to give the "being in charge" part of the rescue course more emphasis in the Divemaster training. once you're trying to become a DM you *should* be able (or at least willing) to take charge in an emergency. It could be a massive improvement to the DM course.

In the Instructors course you go through all that rescue stuff again but it's still not detailed enough. That's another point during the training, when the diver should not only be ready and willing but also ABLE to take charge, where managing the scene could be given the air-time it deserves.

Splitting it into two modules could be a pretty good idea.

R..

Short version: essentially it sounds that your opinion is that the emergency response training really is lacking at all three current levels, basic rescue, DM and instructor...

It is easy to forget how valuable life and job experience is when talking about hobbies. While I was on active duty posts with my national guard unit I always laughed when the active duty guys would not be able to fix a problem yet I would send one of my young guys who fixes the widgets as his full time employment.

Btw, where can we buy the Diver0001 to put in our emergency kits?

 

[Diver0001]

Short version: essentially it sounds that your opinion is that the emergency response training really is lacking at all three current levels, basic rescue, DM and instructor...

Put like that I guess you're right. Without giving it much thought I would say that it's logical that the "bar" should be raised at the Rescue level and the raised again at the DM level and AGAIN at the instructor level.

As it is, at the rescue level the bar is fine in some ways and could be improved in others. at the DM and instructor level the bar is hardly raised at all.... which seems in need of improvement to me.

Btw, where can we buy the Diver0001 to put in our emergency kits?

*bushing*

R..

 

[Bob DBF]

I guess my Rescue instructor gets a pat on the back when I see him next. He made it quite clear that the exercise was not over just because you had the victim out of the water. The in water rescue went well for everyone, as did using "bystanders" for the 911 call and other tasks. Where the ball got dropped was in how many and how important were the ones that got dropped. A firefighter in the class excelled as controlling emergency scenes was his job already. I forgot to have someone document the event, and possibly something else that I don't recall.

The funniest part of the day was when I got to the beach with the victim and reverted to my Navy "command" voice. The instructor asked me, after the drill, "Who the he** was that?"

Fast forward to the next year, I watched him, his AI, and DM manage an incident when an OW student panicked at depth and bolted. From the way it was done, I don't think they would (could) have run the scene any different, as it looked perfect, if the casualty were more tragic. The guy was ok, and would not have been in that position if he would have disclosed his asthma problems.


I do like the idea of Rescue I (OW), II (DM),and III (Instructor) with the caveat that they are open to all divers, possibly part of MSD certification. I would still include the in water rescue and CPR (to make it real) on all, but focus on the job on the beach (II) and overall scene management (III), or would all this work be considered hazing?




Bob
-----------------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[letterboy]

Part 1 and 2 open to all.

Part 3 requires recommendation from a instructor +. Not to limit acceptance, but to limit acceptance. Make sense?