Request for opinions about standardizing on EAN80

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To the questions:

1/ A tank of 80 needs to be drained and refilled every time, while the tank of 100 is just topped off. You need to take a full tank of 80 for every dive, but a tank of 100 can be re-used because you need less of it. A tank of 80 can be harder to make when the O2 supply is getting low, while you don't need to take a full tank of 100.

It is rarity for me to find fill stations doing partial pressure blending alone. Most places have sticks or haskels, so topping up your mix without dumping has become SOP lately.

The 100 works best in conjunction with other deco mixes, but can be a little too aggressive when used in isolation against air only type dives.

Not sure I agree here. 100% has a good track record as being used as a single deco gas, Yeah there is discussion about oxidants etc,but no real concrete studies, just narrative. But look at it from this sense, in a chamber you go from 3+atms of an air environment in a chamber to oxygen, without transitions. I know that is for therapeutic reasons,but the axiom of medicine is first do no harm.
 
In a chamber you will not drown from toxing, and you are with a medical professional to change the mix or render care as needed. That does not happen at 20fsw. There has been some quality discussion here, at the end of the day only YOU make the choice. Talking about it add nauseam will not effect the outcome of your choices moving forward. I think Ross explained what I was saying about single gas deco given your profiles.
Eric
 
I know that is for therapeutic reasons,but the axiom of medicine is first do no harm.

Hah! Common misconception.. :D

Better axiom is "every medical decision is based on balancing risks against benefits". If we could never do any harm, we couldn't work.

But I get your point...

---------- Post added September 10th, 2015 at 08:23 AM ----------

There has been some quality discussion here, at the end of the day only YOU make the choice. Talking about it add nauseam will not effect the outcome of your choices moving forward.

Yup, I really do think that this has been an interesting thread, with relevant comments by experienced divers. Talking about it does help me with decisions (that's the point of this forum); I don't know if we have quite reached the level of "ad nauseam" yet. :)
 
In a chamber you will not drown from toxing, and you are with a medical professional to change the mix or render care as needed. That does not happen at 20fsw.

Those things are correct, but the point to be made is that transitioning to O2 from eg air to decompress, may not as much of a problem as was declared.
 
I haven't run the profile we do on our our weekly bimble for a while but I don't think there's really any benefit to 80% over 50% for dives on air with 30 minutes of deco.

Run the profiles but I'm pretty sure that the total run times on 50, 80 or 100% for air dives with +/- 30 minutes of deco are all in the same ball park. The big difference is that with 80% or 100% your reserves of back gas can be significantly lower depending on the depth you dive to. To me that, and the depth at which you can switch if needed are where the crux of any potential safety issues shows up.

Personally I don't see a compelling reason not to use 50%.

R..
 
If you have a DCI incident then you want 100% on hand. Not 80%.
Mind explaining?
imho you're just looking at what has most O2 in it, if it has to be N32, then 32 it is. If it's air, then it's just too bad. Saying you want "only 100%" doesn't sound good to me.

Reducing deco time with richer mixes is a dual edged sword. Lower DCS risk is accompanied by higher O2 risk. While the risk of OxTox may be minuscule, the consequences of a seizure underwater is virtually certain death. Spending a few more minutes with a lower O2 mix is a worthwhile trade off in my mind.
So where do you draw the line? Do you deco on air? I mean, then you'll be fine with O2, it's only a few more minutes (probably close to twice the time, but it's only 30 minutes, right?). O2 exposure is something to keep in mind when chosing gas (or well, so people say), but claiming 80 is better than 100 "because you're less likely to tox", if you're already far from the official limit (haven't looked it up, so it might get close-ish), seems a bit surprising...

Not meaning to be aggressive, although some phrasing might sound like it, simply those 2 posts that caught my eyes and made me think a bit.

I'd do 50 or 100, but not in-between because I don't want to be a pain to my fill station guy. I'll take what he banks.
 
I haven't run the profile we do on our our weekly bimble for a while but I don't think there's really any benefit to 80% over 50% for dives on air with 30 minutes of deco.

Run the profiles but I'm pretty sure that the total run times on 50, 80 or 100% for air dives with +/- 30 minutes of deco are all in the same ball park. The big difference is that with 80% or 100% your reserves of back gas can be significantly lower depending on the depth you dive to. To me that, and the depth at which you can switch if needed are where the crux of any potential safety issues shows up.

Personally I don't see a compelling reason not to use 50%.

R..

Yup, I'm leaning more and more towards that conclusion...

---------- Post added September 10th, 2015 at 04:59 PM ----------

nadwindy:
If you have a DCI incident then you want 100% on hand. Not 80%.


Mind explaining?
imho you're just looking at what has most O2 in it, if it has to be N32, then 32 it is. If it's air, then it's just too bad. Saying you want "only 100%" doesn't sound good to me.

I think that he meant for surface treatment of a bent diver pending transport to a chamber, the best gas is 100% O2, preferably delivered through a demand regulator if the patient is conscious. So if you have an O2 bottle with you, it serves a purpose beyond just being a deco gas.
 
Yup, I'm leaning more and more towards that conclusion....

Yeah, you did say you had 2 deco bottles. My post was based on the assumption that you're using one gas.

If you were to use 50% and 80 (or 100) and switch gasses twice then you could start to see relevant reductions in deco times. On 30-odd minutes the acceleration could be on the order of 7-10 min with 2 gasses. For longer deco times, for example in cases of run times around 90-100 min then you start to see really relevant differences between using 50/100 and using just 80%. I'm sure on longer dives the differences just become more pronounced. I assume this is (one of the) reason(s) that divers making dives that require a lot of deco think 80% isn't very useful.

For 30 minutes and one gas, however, I'd still personally choose 50% for the reasons I mentioned above.

R..
 
At the end of the day it all is a choice. some notions I had in no particular order that would influence my choices about everything tech, including gas choice and planning.

1. are you diving team or solo or same day same ocean?

2. age and fitness of diver

3. duration of exposure

4. dive mission/exertion at depth

5. depth

I have found that taking a long look at these 5 musings will generally push a thinking diver in the right direction for any given dive. The objective of every dive being to return unharmed with as little risk exposure to meet the objective of the dive at hand.

Eric
 
1) Leaving aside the deco issues, are there safety reasons for standardizing on EAN80 when compared to 100% O2? I understand that the standard pure O2 fill (without a booster) of an aluminum tank with a service pressure of 3000 PSI is about 2200, but then again, you need less gas volume in most profiles. Tank accidents and fires are rare, but does having 100% vs 80% make any difference?


2) Do any of you feel that there is a significant advantage of EAN80 in terms of oxygen injury (CNS clock, vascular perfusion, pulmonary injury)? Air breaks? Anything else...?


I was in the same boat when I started doing accelerated decompression. The difference between 80% and 100% is negligible, as you can verify by running through some schedules in your planning software. I do my last deco stops at 10', so I'm less than 1.6 on my ppO2 with 100%. So I don't see a safety issue here. As far as fires, I'm under the impression anything over 50% is dangerous. I also don't go to shops that don't have an O2 booster anymore. I fill my AL40 with 100% O2 and have enough for 2 dives. I don't think about it much after that. And some places want to charge you a gas blending fee if it's not something they bank or something they can just turn the valve on and ignore.

I don't see any significant advantage with using 80% over 100%. I've been over the CNS clock plenty but without issue. And my understanding is that NOAA developed it with a working diver in mind, not someone lightly finning at a deco stop.

As far as air breaks, my recollection when I looked up the studies a while back was that the testing related to pulmonary oxygen toxicity, not CNS oxtox. Pulmonary comes into play with long exposures similar to what patients experience in hyberbaric chamber treatments for ailments like diabetes. Long exposures (like over 10 hours) to high ppO2s damages your lungs and reduces your vital capacity, and so air breaks are introduced to stave off this effect. A number of these studies were done on animals breathing pure O2 for long periods (as much as 24 hours) with intervening time on air. These were also a ppO2s higher than 1.6. One of the studies look at rats and did ppO2s of 1.5, 2.0, and 4.0, for example.

There are physiologists on this board that can probably do a better job explaining it, or can correct me if I'm misremembering.

Not to put words in Steve Lewis' mouth, but here is a post on his blog about them:

https://decodoppler.wordpress.com/2...and-do-people-take-them-for-the-wrong-reason/

The GUE and UTD crowd adopted a 12 minutes on, 6 minutes off regimen, the ratio of which is related to the research I mentioned above. If you're doing multi-hour decos, it isn't going to hurt your lungs to give them a break every so often.

Edit:
I just found one of the studies from UHM 2004, Vol. 31, No. 2 - Mini-forum on oxygen toxicity and air breaks in HBO2 therapy (Hyperbaric O2). I think this is available on the rubicon project for download.

I've linked it here, so you can read it for yourself. My take is if you're doing the types of exposures you would get in a Hyperbaric Chamber, which some divers are doing, then take air breaks in a ratio less than 4:1 w/ the oxygen interval less than 60 minutes if you're at 2.0 ATA, which you shouldn't be unless you're doing in-water recompression.

Edit #2: so I just looked at some more of your posts and saw you're mainly looking to carry one deco gas :). I would just run the profile in whatever planner you have and see what gas will do the trick while only needing to carry an AL40 and give you the shortest deco time.
 

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