Removing items from the USS Oriskany (interesting dilemma)

[mtg]

A tempest in a teapot in my opinion. I give Captain Thorsen due credit for signing on to SB to stand up and clearly state his position. We've established throughout this thread that sometimes people do thoughtless things. The description of the graffiti and the flag/ad and mooring balls was irritating to read.

I think this horse may have been terminally beaten at this point and don't see any advantage to continued debate.

A lot of people are idiots. Let's try not to join them.

Sea ya!

Clearly state his opinion? Seemed more like trying to distract the teacher by pointing out someone else's wrong-doing, while you run around and do what you want.

Either he protects the reefs and does his part to ensure that others on his boat do, or he doesn't. Quite simple actually. So either he's a liar, or Sleppy is. Equally simple.

So which is it?

 

[Chad_Ordelheide]

I'm personally glad they ripped that stuff off. I'm living in Guam near the famous Truk Lagoon wrecks. One thing I hear is how people HATE seeing all those old artifacts in the ships! China, cups, torpedoes, ammo, gauges, etc, etc. They just get in the way of seeing the rusting superstructure. Maybe we should even cut off all the colorful soft corals that obstruct our view too? I'm sure the esteemed divers (aka dumb A@#es) who took the stuff off the Oriskany only had our best interests in mind. Now we don't have to worry about bumping into gauges, phones...and very soon...anything!!!!

Hey, maybe it's just me...but everyone seems to think they are the exception to the rule. Comeon guys!! Leave the stuff for others to enjoy too!!! and TIM....if you are innocent and believe what you say you do. Maybe you should be the one to spearhead a program to preserve the Oriskany for future divers!!!

 

[Mike Veitch]

two guys in Palau are currently doing time for taking stuff from wrecks...

 

[King Kong Matt]

Clearly state his opinion? Seemed more like trying to distract the teacher by pointing out someone else's wrong-doing, while you run around and do what you want.

What is interesting about this is that his whole pitch started out with a claim that he would correct all the inaccuracies in the story. At what point in his convoluted tale rife with a 7th grader's spelling ability and distractors about past military service did he point out our inaccuracies? He isn't claiming, to the best of my knowledge, that his diver didn't do exactly what SB alleged he did. He is simply saying that others do it too.

It's a total strawman argument.

 

[BiggDawg]

So let me get this right, we can spearfish and take life from the reef but not a rusted old bolt ?

That seems to be the mentality around here.

A rusted bolt laying on the deck is one thing. But if you you can come with a recipe to grill the Control Panel, I might consider your argument.

No. Not even then.

Maybe, when "rusted old bolts" begin to spawn on the reefs, and there are schools of rusted old bolts to be seen and enjoyed by others, maybe then the taking of one might not be considered selfishly (and permanently) damaging to the site.

As for me, there can be nothing down there that I would rather remove than that I would prefer to see and leave for others.

 

[IXΘYΣ]

So let me get this right, we can spearfish and take life from the reef but not a rusted old bolt ?

That is correct. If you have the proper fishing license. The "rusted old bolt" is the property of the State of Florida and not yours.
Just a rhetorical question here... Why is this concept of property so hard to get through to some folks? The Oriskany doesn't belong to divers and fishermen - it belongs to the State. The State says "don't take any pieces off my ship." Respect the owner's property.
Pretty simple concept to me.
IXΘYΣ

 

[The Chairman]

I have finally gotten on your group as to be able to dispell some of the false accusations and misinformation that many within your discussions seem to be intent at spreading.

Dear Captain...

Your attitude speaks volumes here

So, I am inclined to ask. Which accusations were false? You seem to admit that the items were taken and on your boat.

I have dove off of hundreds of boats around the world. If I am in a "no take" or otherwise restricted area, the captain (or dive master) usually goes out of their way to explain the rules. Captain Jim, from the Loggerhead (Boyton Beach) has a wonderful way of telling people when they can't take lobster: "Both you and a lobster are not allowed on my boat. If you want a ride back, please leave the lobsters on the reef."

So, I have a few questions that you may (or may not) feel inclined to answer.

1) How did you miss the tool bag brought down to the wreck? These are usually very obvious.

2) Why did you not make him go put it back?

3) What was in your "appropriate and professional" discussion? It appears that he collected artifacts on more than one dive. Did this discussion entail the need for conservation, or was it a pat on the back for a "job well done!"???

I read your post twice and never saw a single apology for allowing this to happen. One of your divers just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and you CONDEMN US for being upset about it? Perhaps you should have been more protective of your "reputation" while this guy was on your boat? Like most of us here, you have some room for improvement. So instead of gettig defensive and telling us how perfect you are, in light of the current evidence, why not tell us how you plan to keep this from happening again? That's what we really want to hear: that you are now committed to protect this wreck. Or possibly you are not, and you can tell us that as well.

Finally, welcome to the World's largest Dive Community, Web Site Forum and Publication. Our readership exceeds the combined circulation of the top three Scuba Related magazines. You can choose to insult your potential clients here, or enter into a meaningful dialogue with them instead. Divemaster Oriskany found us discussing him as well. In fact, I think I was the one who asked him here to straighten out the story. You might take some pointers from him on how to make a great impression here.

 

[erparamedic]

Net Doc... well said.

 

[Jason B]

The mentality here is to leave the ship the way it was sunk for the enjoyment of other divers. That control panel was not removed so that divers could see something more interesting than just a hole, which is what is left now.

So tell me, what are your plans to ensure divers 20 years from now can enjoy the control panels? Are you going to keep killing off the corals and marine growth that accumulates on them?

 

[vikingdiving]

I would like to say that I have read all of the comments and concerns from eveyone on this board who have written regarding this matter and it is almost impossible to respond directly to each and every one, but the main difference is the fact that unlike most on this board, I am a diving professional and this is my business, not just a occasional activity. This is what I do for a living and as such it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time. I continually discourage people to take things from the reefs, shoot illegal fish, dive after drinking the night before, drink after diving period, smoke cigarettes, lie, cheat, steal... We are all adults, or at least I assume most of us are on this board because I don't know the ages of all writers, and as such everyone is going to do whatever they choose regardless of my recommendations or suggestions. The only one's who I can have direct control over their actions are the Instructor candidates who if they don't listen and respond with correction of their actions then we simply don't certify them as instructors and let them into the diving mainstream. Even the ones who give lip service to what is right only to go on and do what is wrong eventually, again, only they are responsible for their own actions.
As a professional and especially, as a dive professional I am not going to be dragged into a mud slinging match with my peers or anyone else for that matter. I will summarize with one statement. I am glad that I do business the way that I do, and that they do business the way that they do. We have been successful over the years and are here committed to those divers who wish for a safe and enjoyable experience whethor on the Oriskany or anywhere else. As to the question of did I allow it? As stated previously... it is not a matter of allowing someone to do what they are going to do regardless. Florida law prohibits smoking in any common areas where there are smokers and non-smokers and the head on our boat is off limits, but on most trips where smokers are on board, despite our directly addressing this fact in our pre-trip briefing, smokers continually go into the head and do thier thing. Do you guys think we can't smell it? Should I throw these individuals overboard? Of course not. You yourself would not appreciate being challenged or confronted, especially openly or publicly. I try to treat eveyone with fairness and to provide for their personal enjoyment. I am not going to be an "***" to anyone just because someone dosn't like what they choose to do otherwise, you would have to be an *** to eveyone because noone does everything just the way any of us would like it. Now, if you violate your computer and I know about it, then obviously... I'm not going to allow you to kill yourself or injure yourself because of your ignorance or lack of knowledge or training. Sometimes, I have to be an *** and not let people dive because their ignorance will result in severe consiquences and I have been chastised for this also over the years, but this is the difference between a professional and someone who has taken a basic class and never even learned how the tables work, let alone why they shouldn't dive with a violated computer.
This subject has already consumed more time and in the words of "Sasquatch"... the proverbial horse has litterally been beaten to death. Due to rain and rough seas, we are not diving today, but time is better spent taking all of you who wish to continue to dive the Mighty "O" or any other of our reefs to an enjoyable experience where you will not be openly embarrased or chastised by someone you are paying to have a good time with regardless of if your actions are simple mistakes or outright stupid behavior. My job is to keep you safe, bring you back, and help you to have an enjoyable dive. The rest is up to you.

From the Responsible diver:
Your trianing can be excellent, but your training is not responsible for you.
Your equipment can be excellent, but your equipment is not responsible for you.
Your dive buddy can be excellent, but your dive buddy is not responsible for you.
You are responsible for you... you should be excellent.