Religion and scuba

[Freewillow]

On the faith issue, here's an example of faith. When you marry, you bind yourself contractually in a very personal, intimate & vulnerable way to a person you know to some extent, but not completely. Yes, you know a lot, but you don't know how that person will change with the years. Will he/she stay faithful? Will his/her personality morph into something awful to live with? No matter how much you think you know walking to the alter, you've probably got a lot to learn! But if you're there, then you know enough to settle in your own mind & heart to invest a measure of faith in your partner, yourself and your relationship. And either to marry or to not do so could in theory turn out to be a mistake. Marriage is a leap of faith that can take you places you couldn't reach without it. Wait for the certainly of a sure thing & you may find yourself alone.

So, too, is faith in God like this.

Richard.

I love you analogy and your description of faith .

Now look at this. You are in front of the alter. you are about to marry to a girl that YOU KNOW is always telling stories and has absolutelly no credibility.

To have faith in this woman and your common future would indeed be an act of faith .

Now consider that the bible is something that is very difficult to believe. It is a collection of old mythological stories from the past. The scientific evidences are just not there. To read the genesis is enough for any scientific mind.

So to belive in the christian god is really a similar act of faith.

But maybe, as a doctor, you belong to the poor majority of US citizen that still believe in creationism. The earth is only 10,000 years old right.

Let me be clear . I may accept that one believe in god. Maybe somebody was "there" in order to start the whole thing. I cannot prove that this is a stupid idea. But to go as far as to believe that God has inspired prophets, jesus and Mohamed to write on his behalve., that goes behind reason.

I do not want to shock anybody on this forum. but let me claim that my firm belief is that "man created god and not the otherway around".

---------- Post added July 16th, 2015 at 11:18 AM ----------

"miracles" happen. As a doctor, you should be aware of mis-diagnoses and placebo effects, right

 

[phoenix31tt]

I love you analogy and your description of faith .

Now look at this. You are in front of the alter. you are about to marry to a girl that YOU KNOW is always telling stories and has absolutelly no credibility.

To have faith in this woman and your common future would indeed be an act of faith .

Now consider that the bible is something that is very difficult to believe. It is a collection of old mythological stories from the past. The scientific evidences are just not there. To read the genesis is enough for any scientific mind.

So to belive in the christian god is really a similar act of faith.

But maybe, as a doctor, you belong to the poor majority of US citizen that still believe in creationism. The earth is only 10,000 years old right.

Let me be clear . I may accept that one believe in god. Maybe somebody was "there" in order to start the whole thing. I cannot prove that this is a stupid idea. But to go as far as to believe that God has inspired prophets, jesus and Mohamed to write on his behalve., that goes behind reason.

I do not want to shock anybody on this forum. but let me claim that my firm belief is that "man created god and not the otherway around".

---------- Post added July 16th, 2015 at 11:18 AM ----------

"miracles" happen. As a doctor, you should be aware of mis-diagnoses and placebo effects, right

so silly... i looked at this post and was like... whattttt lol...

if you really have an understanding of the bible... or maybe even studied it yourself with an open mind... not one that says... let me scrummage through this and find all the inconsistencies... you would know a thing or two...
and the more you understand the Bible and how God works is the more you will understand that the bible and science are complementary... from miracles to the placebo effect... people were healed by Jesus because they chose to believe in the healing... when he went to his home town, people knew him there as the carpenter... not much healing was done there because they just couldn't believe they would be healed.

Or how about Elijah vs the prohpets of Ba'al. When he prayed to God and fire descended from heaven, did God himself reach down and lit the sacrifice on fire... maybe it was an asteroid... but the timing of the asteroid just as Elijah was praying to God? Hmm.. see you don't understand that God doesn't need to do anything again, it's like a well programmed computer game... everything is already planned out, an infinite (to us) set of actions and consequences have already been laid out... we are just acting out in time now.

Genesis... if you know the author of the book, Moses... we understand that God showed moses the story and he wrote. Imagine God showing moses how the universe was created, big bang and all but from God's perspective, him hearing what God says... how do you think he would write it? He would write based on his own understanding.

When you look at verses like:

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."

Doesn't that fit with science? Evolution from single cell organisms... sure it does, but God commanded it and that's how it came to be. The more advanced we become it's the more we realise how much things we have been missing. Do not try to liken your limited understanding to God's... we are only human and cannot begin to comprehend the fullness of God. Therein lies your problem, the inability to rationalize a God means he must not exist.

 

[Mike126]

Show me said evidence... The largest wars and death toll have nothing to do with religion... All to do with different beliefs and lust for power though... Racial divides etc... The "religious" wars are child's play compared to things like wwi/ii, the Atlantic slave trade etc...

...big picture... I live in a very diverse contry so I would know a thing or two about different religions...

Please don't cite difference in BELIEFS as difference in RELIGIOUS beliefs


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religion is beliefs. So to name a few wars/religious prosecutions that were based on differences in beliefs:

Israel vs..... you name it
Middle East in general
Lebanese Civil War
Crusades
Sudanese Civil Wars
Great Peasants War
Nigerian Civil War
French Wars of Religion
30 Years War
80 Years War
WWII Holocaust

Bottom line for me is believe in what you want as long as you don't impose your beliefs on me as being better.

 

[dfx]

Genesis... if you know the author of the book, Moses...

Well, thank you for finally demonstrating your superior understanding of the bible.

 

[doctormike]

As I just said God is just... So you may see something bad happen to say a baby (classic example) and think where is God to stop this... But the earth belongs to us and we have the power to change it... If for whatever reason some chain of events (popular in scuba) cause a disastrous effect and innocent people get caught in the middle of it... God has the power to make them whole and set things right... Even if it's in the afterlife (think about how small our lifespan is when you consider an eternity)... Or for those that believe in reincarnation that baby may reborn as a well hung billionaire with wings for the atrocities suffered in this life

Just as there are laws of physics though, cause and effect, there are laws of God that does the same thing (give and you shall receive, folloe God's law and salvation awaits, step out of God's grace and you're on your own, choose life and live)... A righteous priest is killed... Does that mean he did something bad? Not necessarily... Who knows what God had waiting for him on the other side... If a baby dies... Do you know what awaits their soul in the afterlife? Do you know what further depravity they might have been saved from?... And then that's where faith actually comes into play... Believing that God is just, loving, all powerful etc and just following his guide for your life... I.e. His will


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Wow, that's impressive.

So why would you criticize or try to change anything that happens on this earth, if you feel that whatever happens, it's God's plan? Why would you check the MOD on your deco bottle before switching? If you ox tox and drown, maybe God was saving you from further depravity in your life in the future, and you are going to have a wonderful afterlife. Right? In fact, by your logic (since God is omnipotent and omniscient), God is DEFINITELY doing right by you.

So when that baby is sick in the ICU, are you going to tell the parents that God wanted him to suffer with meningitis, and that we shouldn't interfere with God's plan?

THIS is why I'm not indifferent about faith. THIS is why I think that it's a sin.

 

[drrich2]

So why do bad things happen to babies and small children?

I have seen some REALLY bad things happen to those humans.

It's fine for you to say it's God's will, and that is beyond human understanding.

But please don't pretend that these kids deserved it, because of Eve. And please don't tell their parents that.

Those babies & children will grow up to sin, if they survive. It's in their nature. That said, when King David's infant son by Bathsheba died, he indicated that he would ultimately go to his son, and while we don't see the term literally in Scripture, many believe in an age of accountability (unclear exactly what that is for an individual) whereby beforehand if one dies, the soul is not condemned. In brief, I don't think babies go to Hell.

The other angle of your argument only holds up if you presume God is obligated to stop bad things from happening to what you consider good/innocent people. He's not. Closest we've had to that issue illustrated in the Bible was the Book of Job. And how many times have you yourself seen famine victims on t.v. or some other heart string-pulling atrocity and flipped the channel or otherwise not 'done more?' Human kind chose sin, thus we live in a fallen world (flawed, death), and that has some awful consequences. You don't have to be a healthcare worker to know bad parental decisions can affect kid's lives.

Such things are inconsistent with any conception of true divinity. Only the darkest and most savage instincts can imagine a God capable of cruelty directed toward his children, who are the only mortals capable of envisioning his existence.

Inconsistent with your conception of it. You presume to judge God according to your own moral views.

Now consider that the bible is something that is very difficult to believe. It is a collection of old mythological stories from the past. The scientific evidences are just not there. To read the genesis is enough for any scientific mind.

And here we go with this thread chasing its own tail again & again and again. We Christians don't find it that difficult to believe, consider the stories true, and figure that if we knew the entire story the other evidence would fit, and if in the present partial ignorance of Man we don't understand some it, so be it.

But maybe, as a doctor, you belong to the poor majority of US citizen that still believe in creationism. The earth is only 10,000 years old right.

I wasn't here 10,000 years ago or 4 billion, and neither were any of the other currently living people regardless of their opinions.

But to go as far as to believe that God has inspired prophets, jesus and Mohamed to write on his behalve., that goes behind reason.

Depends on the basis for the reasoning, I suppose.

"miracles" happen. As a doctor, you should be aware of mis-diagnoses and placebo effects, right

Yes. On the other hand, some things are found definitively, and subsequently disappear too fast to be explicable, that sort of thing.

I still find it crazy the original poster didn't see this coming when he started the thread. I knew it from the time I saw his 1st post and I suspect many others did, too.

We've hit the 'Is not, Is so, Is not...' portion of the thread, and the main running question is how many more pages will it go?

Richard.

 

[phoenix31tt]

Wow, that's impressive.

So why would you criticize or try to change anything that happens on this earth, if you feel that whatever happens, it's God's plan? Why would you check the MOD on your deco bottle before switching? If you ox tox and drown, maybe God was saving you from further depravity in your life in the future, and you are going to have a wonderful afterlife. Right? In fact, by your logic (since God is omnipotent and omniscient), God is DEFINITELY doing right by you.

So when that baby is sick in the ICU, are you going to tell the parents that God wanted him to suffer with meningitis, and that we shouldn't interfere with God's plan?

THIS is why I'm not indifferent about faith. THIS is why I think that it's a sin.

I never said it was Gods plan... I said a set of actions and consequences already exist... We choose which path to take... Only one of those paths are the ones God wants us to take and if every single person ever in existence... Right back to Adam did what God wanted we would still be in paradise... As said before the earth belongs to us... However every action has a consequence... You know the butterfly effect right?

I already gave my view on the babies and innocents... Yes some decision made somewhere caused it... I'm not saying it's fair to the baby or the parents or that the baby would grow up to be a sinner... But I'm saying that whatever injustice may have been done to the baby God will make it right and whole again... In this life or the next.

It is your role as a parent to take care of your child... If he's sick and you say that's God's will.. You are a fool... It's your job to ensure the child gets proper care etc... That's why I say it's YOUR choices... It is not easy to find the right path so we do good and hope we find it anyways... Some of us are lucky enough to have certain guidance to help us find that path easier... Some of us are born with natural ability that our path finds us...

It's really scientific if you think about it... [emoji6]


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[dfx]

And here we go with this thread chasing its own tail again & again and again. We Christians don't find it that difficult to believe, consider the stories true, and figure that if we knew the entire story the other evidence would fit, and if in the present partial ignorance of Man we don't understand some it, so be it.

Yeah, because you've given up reason and critical thinking in favour of faith. You already know that what you believe is true and nothing will change that. If some parts of the story don't fit what you believe, then you'll just explain that away somehow. Or ignore it. Contradicting evidence will be dismissed, while evidence fitting the story will be seen as confirming your beliefs. It is, and this is the definition of the word, unreasonable.

 

[phoenix31tt]

Dfx... There is really no contradicting evidence against what's in the Bible... Just lack of evidence to support some claims... I'd say to write it off because of lack of evidence is just as unreasonable as you describe...

For instance... People say the Bible says the earth is 6000-10000 years old... Really where in the bible says that? Somebody did calculations based on what they thought they understood...

Someone said the big bang can't correlate with God... Why? Our dimension is bound by space and time... God exists outside those bounds... He's responsible for the big bang... Creating a finite space out of his infinite being...

So many people praised interstellar... Scientists and all... To think humans could evolve to exist in 5th D... Yet still think God is impossible... Amazing


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[dfx]

Dfx... There is really no contradicting evidence against what's in the Bible... Just lack of evidence to support some claims... I'd say to write it off because of lack of evidence is just as unreasonable as you describe...

Well, one of my favourite passages is https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+30:37-39&version=KJV
Do you think that this really works? Or could ever work? Or do you feel compelled to explain it away, perhaps dismiss it due to "lack of understanding?"

For instance... People say the Bible says the earth is 6000-10000 years old... Really where in the bible says that? Somebody did calculations based on what they thought they understood...

No, they did calculations based on what it says. It is what it is. It also says that the earth is flat. But yeah, this is another thing that you can try to explain away or ignore. See above.