Regulator Shut-off

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yknot

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I experienced an uncontroled free flow recently during a cold water dive with my Zeagle regs. Zeagle makes a shut-off valve that I believe mounts in line between the 2nd stage and LP hose end. Has anyone used these? I am curious if these would be a reliable option for shutting off a free flowing 2nd stage and also how easy to manipulate these valves are- can you operate them with gloves on? Do they have any tendancy to shut off by being bumped into something?
 
very careful with one of those as a failure isolation method.

If the first stage has frozen open (as opposed to the second freezing internally), the freeflow is due to the excessive IP. Close that valve and if there is no other second stage on the same first BOOM - the hose will explode! Not good!
 
Installing a shut off as described between the 1st and 2nd stage really solves nothing! Think..........the first stage is likely frozen up. You have exposed the low pressure part of the system to potential harm. The first stage is still under tank pressure and frozen. Shutting the supply off to the second stage only stopped the bubbles and the noise, your problem still exists and you still have no gas ( barring your buddy ). Shutting off the tank valve and letting the ambient temperature warm the valve and regulator 1 st stage may be your only hope for salvaging your gas supply and correcting this problem. If your fortunate enough to survive, some self annalisis of the source of the failure would be in order before continueing or diving again! Buddy YES! Spare air YES! Training for this situation YES! H valve, well I guess. Trinket valve, not on my watch.............
Wreck/Tec
 
Buy a Poseidon Jetstream.

Most freeze ups occur at the second stage. Even though pressure drop between the first stage and second is greatest (and therefore the adiabatic expansion is greatest) the air is dry(at least it should have a low humidity) from filtration and there is nothing to freeze.

Contrast that with the second stage. Here you are introducing constant humidity through your breath and the surrounding environment-be it on land or in water.

Like the posts before me have mentioned if your first stage freezes open then the second stage is exposed to a very high pressure that could blow your hose or blow your reg. off it's hose(I've seen this happen)-unless you have an overpressure relief valve like the Jetstream has.

Use good ice diving technique with regards to your regs.-I won't expand on this since you probably know it.

The more small moving parts in a regs. second stage the more points of potential freeze up exist.

Cold water diving is why I bought a Jestream-not for the hassle of finding someone to service it-not for the inflated cost-not for the Swedish dive bunny that I thought came with every reg. purchase. Just for cold water.


If an uncontrolable free-flow occurs I would be more inclined to grab my dive buddies reg. and abort the dive.
 
Don't put a shut off in the hose. I haven't seen such a valve, however that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Some points about the reg though...did the free flow happen at the surface or at depth? Was the reg in or out of your mouth?

The reason I ask is that if the venturi (sp?) lever is in the dive position and the purge is bumped or the reg is put in the water (mouth piece up) the reg will free plow. This is normal and you only need to block the mouth piece tp stop the flow. At the surface keep the lever in the "surface position" and/or take care in how you handle the reg.

I theory any reg can freeze but I use nothing but zeagle regs and dive in lots of cold water and have never had one freeze.

I would figure out what caused the problem and forget the valve.
 
I was with a small group and we had just started our decent. At about 40' I noticed that my octo had come out of retaining loop (another small piece of junk recommended by a LDS) and upon attemting to re-stow my octo, I most likely bumped the purge. I am a new diver and didn't perhaps react properly. I did attempt to play with the dive/pre dive switch but did not do anything with the breathing resistance control. I swapped my primary for the octo to help preserve my gas supply somewhat. At this point my primary started to free flow. I swam everything up and managed to then kill free flows by turning breathing resistance knobs all the way closed. Had to abort dive- only 800 psi remaining. Incidently, how should the breathing resistance be set for Zeagle regs? My owner's manual is vague. I need to have these regs looked at prior to using them again but I don't have a lot of faith in the talent at the LDS I bought them from.
 
If there is, then you might want to set this a bit "less".

If you purge on the surface, the reg will freeflow if the venturi adjust is set too high. Back it off until it just stops. With it set there, it should not freeflow underwater if you bump the purge.

The breathing resistance control is probably NOT the cause of this, unless you are in current and the water flow is going into the purge cover. Then it can be, but this doesn't sound like what you ran into.

If there is no external venturi adjust your reg probably has an internal setting for this. In that case you need to have it adjusted "down" some, and may need to have a tech do it if you don't know where/how.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
If there is, then you might want to set this a bit "less".

If you purge on the surface, the reg will freeflow if the venturi adjust is set too high. Back it off until it just stops. With it set there, it should not freeflow underwater if you bump the purge.

The breathing resistance control is probably NOT the cause of this, unless you are in current and the water flow is going into the purge cover. Then it can be, but this doesn't sound like what you ran into.

If there is no external venturi adjust your reg probably has an internal setting for this. In that case you need to have it adjusted "down" some, and may need to have a tech do it if you don't know where/how.

This is not correct. If the reg is adjusted to not maintain flow (out of your mouth) the venturi is not performing its intended purpose. It is the back presure caused by the reg being in your mouth that allows the reg to stop flowing. When the reg out of the mouth there is nothing to increase the presure on that side of the diaghram and it should flow on it's own.

All Zeagle regs have a venturi control. On a properly tuned second stage the reg will maintain free flow if it is purged with the venturi control in the dive position regardless of the setting of the breathing resistance adjustment (if the reg has one). The only Zeagle manufactured reg that doesn't have a breathing resistance contro is the new Envoy. If the reg is under water and the mouthpiece is pointing up it may also free flow. This is normal. When at the surface or anytime the reg isn't in your mouth it is best to have the venturi control in the surface/negative position.

Once the reg free flows placing a hand over the mouthpiece or shanging the position of the venturi lever will stop it. Of course in cold water the free flow may cause the reg to freeze and then you may not be able to stop it. Cold water diving requires a little extra care in how you handle the reg.

BTW, I am a zeagle tech and dealer. Feel free to ask questions. If you run into me at Gilboa or someplace I will be happy to check the tunning for you.
 
that I object to from so-called "technicians" and "shops".

"Positive pressure breathing", which is what Mike is referring to, is not a good thing. There is also no reason for it, other than to skew regulator testing results (fortunately most testers now makes it clear if this is happening in their tests so you can shake your fist at the offender(s)) It increases gas consumption, possibly radically so (especially if it freeflows on you) and can be dangerous, as you experienced.

The IDEAL situation would be a regulator that has ZERO resistance to airflow - that is, it would mimic free air exchange with your lungs and the outside ambient air. It would require neither that you "suck" nor would it blow air down your throat.

Of course what you have outside of your mouth underwater isn't air - its water. But the principle is the same.

Its equally undesirable to have a high breathing resistance, because your diaphram has to do WORK to pump the air in and out. The more resistance, the more work. That's bad as well, and can contribute to CO2 buildup.

Positive pressure breathing is an attempt by regulator makers to cause a regulator to have a POSITIVE feedback influence when it begins to flow air, as a consequence of the flow in the regulator body itself. That is, air flows, that air "sucks" the diaphram inward due to a venturi effect (a venturi drops pressure in the chamber), which pulls the lever down further.... the result is a freeflow. The good news is that many regs have this setting adjustable by the diver, and virtually all can be adjusted internally if its not externally accessible.

I strongly disagree that tuning for positive-pressure breathing is a desirable thing, because if you induce a purge underwater, you get what you experienced - a freeflow!

This also means that if you make a sudden kick or turn, and the flow of water presses on the diaphram, you ALSO get a freeflow that won't stop, because the feedback loop gets going and now you're groping around trying to stick your hand over the mouthpiece to stop it.

Mike ALSO referred to something COMPLETELY different (and why makes no sense to me) which is the situation where the housing is pointing upward (mouthpiece up) and is submerged. This WILL produce a freeflow but for a different reason - the cavity behind the diaphram is full of AIR at ambient (its connected to the surface air by the mouthpiece), while the outside under the diaphram has water pressing on it at greater pressure. This SHOULD produce a "flow", but its not a "freeflow" in that as soon as the entire body goes underwater and the pressures equalize on both sides of the diaphram it should STOP.

The latter is normal.

The former indicates that the venturi adjustment is incorrect.

If you want to set your regs up for positive-pressure breathing be my guest, but its not a good idea to do it because then ANY initiation of air flow through them, for any reason, if the reg is not in your mouth to provide backpressure leads to EXACTLY what you experienced.

A REG SHOULD BE STABLE UNDERWATER WITH NO BACKPRESSURE IN THE FORM OF BEING IN YOUR MOUTH! Positive feedback loops are IMHO BAD!

A better place to tune them, IMHO, is JUST SHORT of where a freeflow will sustain itself. This, along with a proper cracking adjustment, produces a regulator that is as close as you can get to "zero inhalation resistance" without crossing the line into positive-pressure breathing. How close you can get with a particular reg without it becoming unstable depends on both its design and condition. I can get a closer to "zero resistance" with my S600, for example, than the R380 - but both breathe just fine underwater and NEITHER is unstable. (Yes, I can tell the difference - but not by much!)
 
Now Genesis knows more about reg function than everyone else including the engineers who design them.

What I described is the way these regs are designed and intended to function. The same is true for Apeks. If you don't like it buy a different reg but they have worked great for me and many others under every condition the planet has to offer. I dive them under the ice and I dive them to depths of 200 feet in 38 degf water and have had zero problems. It does not increase gas consumption this is a false statement.

Also if you don't want to take advantage of the venturi assist just dive the reg with the venturi control in the neg position. If you tune it the way genesis suggests you are just negating the effect of the venturi.

Also, I was trained in the servicing of these regs by a guy named Jim Fox who likely knows more about them than anyone in the world.
 

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