Regulator Freeze

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Hello,
A little help. This is what happened. Just wondering what might have caused it.

I am a new diver with new equipment. I have a SP S600/MK25 regulator. I went to go diving this past Sunday. I picked up a tank on Saturday. Packed my truck on Sunday morning. Drove to dive site which took about 25 mins. Unpacked. Hooked up BC, Reg, and Tank. Tested Reg and Octopus. Both Breathed fine.
Carried setup to water edge. Put on wet suit. Talked dive with partner. Went to water. Pushed setup out a bit. Put on BC.
Put regulator in mouth and breathed. Regulator free flowed.
Tried everything to get it to stop. There was ice in the mouth pieace and beads of ice on the regulator hose. Octo worked fine.
Turned off air. Banged, shook, breathed on, turned adjustments.
Turned on air, same thing. Turned off air. Banged, shook, breathed on, turned adjustments again. Turned on air, heard pop.
Free flow stopped. Tried regulator. Worked fine. Was down to 750 PSI. Went under to test at about 15 feet. Worked fine. Swim for about 10 mins and surfaced. Surface temp was 40.
Water temp was 39. Week before water temp was 44. Everything was fine. I thought this was a good regulator but freezing at 39 does not make diving easy.
Any comments?

 

[Bob3]

Don't stick the reg in your mouth while on the surface.

Here's a little write-up I did on reg freeze:
http://www.scubadiving.com/members/divetips.php?s=153

Regulator Freeze 101

There's no set temperature where regulator freezes occur; the colder the water, the more likely it is to happen. Some manufacturers use 40º F (4½º C) as an arbitrary number to define conditions where icing may possibly commence.
Both saltwater AND freshwater can get down to 28º F (-2.2º C) and not turn solid if kept moving, such as in a heavy surge or current.
The most common type of regulator freeze-up is the first stage. Unless you're using an environmentally sealed reg, there is water inside your first stage. That water freezes from the air absorbing heat upon expanding (compliments of the similar set of physical laws that make your referigerator work).
The result is overpressurization of the second stage, resulting in a free flow. Most folks THINK their second stage is frozen up, but it's actually the first stage that causes the second to malfunction.

Second stages do freeze up, tho mostly on the surface from breathing in them when air temp, wind chill, etc is below freezing. Simple solution: Don't stick the reg in your mouth until you're underwater.
The other type of second stage freeze is much more rare, in that the water temp almost always has to be below freezing & you have ice build up inside the regulator from breath condensation.
This can happen to even the BEST freeze-proof regulator if the conditions are right.
Hint... double hose regulators don't have this problem. To date, the most all-around freeze-proof reg is still the double hose.

Tip for folks using a separate bottle for drysuit inflation: Install a pop off (overpressure) valve on an LP port of the regulator. In the event of freezing, you won't have to worry about having a hose blow (or the valve on your suit explode).

 

[MSilvia]

Above or below the surface of the water?

If it was above the surface, what was the air temperature and humidity? I had a similar thing happen on a foggy 40 degree day earlier this year. The vented air from a test breath was enough to cool the moisture into ice crystals, and it took me several minutes of exhaling into it with the tank valve shut to thaw it out.

 

[roakey]

During the DIRF I had to draw down my double 104s from about 1500 PSI to 500 for a buoyancy check. This was done by depressing both purges. It was at least 60 out and the water was about 61. Both regs froze. The left post I was able to nurse closed but the right post had to be shut down, wait a few seconds for things to warm up and then opened again.

Roak

1sts: Apeks DS4s, 2nds: ATX50 and ATX40.

 

[Norm]

What Bob3 said. Any reg can freeze. Breathing off them before a dive is voodoo in freezing temps. Some manufacturers warn about diving in temperatures below 50 degrees! Many experienced coldwater divers enter the water, insert their reg into their mouth and then keep them there to descend. (You can try your octopus immediately below the surface) Something else that really tends to freeze up a first stage and/or BC inflator is using your BC's power inflator before the dive. I have seen this cause first stages to freeze and I have seen BC inflator valves actually freeze open before the dive as well! First and second stages freeze. An environmental kit is often a plus, if your first stage allows water into the first stage, although a major manufacturer, (whom by the way offers environmental kits), reputes this! Some divers state that leaving tanks out in the cold before dives cause freeze ups but I have left mine on the ice and on snow all day before using them, with no problems. If you are going to dive in cold environments frequently perhaps an ice diving course, (if available locally), would be a plus?
Norm

 

[Diver0001]

Mr. Nice Guy once bubbled...
Hello,
I thought this was a good regulator but freezing at 39 does not make diving easy.
Any comments?

Any reg can freeze up. After you pressurize it, just do the absolute minimum to see if it's working and then keep it out of the wind. I put my 2nd in a toque and throw a towel over my 1st. Just do what works for you but what ever you do, don't breathe it until you're in the water. Once you're in the water, put the reg in your mouth at the last moment and exhale through the first few metres as you decend. This isn't a 100% guarantee but I've been diving in cold water for many years and I've had very few problems like this.

R..

 

[Bubble Boy]

1) How did ice form on the regulator at the surface if the air temperature was 40 degrees?

2) As everyone above has mentioned you must not breath from the regulator until your face is in the water at those temperatures. Check your tank pressure at home inside before leaving. Make sure regulator is dry when you leave the house

3) Check the dew point on the air test results at your LDS. If atmospheric dew point temperature at 101.3 kPa (14.7 psia or 1atm) is -63 F (-53C) the pressure due point temperature at 20.7 MPa (3000 psig) (3014.7 psia or 204atm) is only 14 F (-10C)

 

[John C. Ratliff]

If you are going to dive in near-freezing water often, it may pay to have another coldwater regulator for those conditions. Years ago, I invested in a Sherwood Magnum Blizzard regulator, with a sealed first stage and warming vanes in the second stage mouthpiece. I'm not sure what the alternatives are right now, but that's a possibility.

Winterizing your present regulator is another possibility. Many regulators have cold water kits available for that modification.

So far is breathing from the regulator before getting into the water, this is probably not smart, although exhaling (but not inhaling) may product a warming effect in the regulator. Inhaling causes instant cooling in both the mechanism of ambient chamber in the first stage, and inside the second stage, as the expanding air cools rapidly.

Different regulators will freeze at different conditions too. I had a MARES MR-12 freeze in 40 degree water some years ago, during the dive. My other regulators did not.

Concerning procuring a double hose regulator, there currently is only one on the market, the Nemrod Snark (I'm not sure of the current number). It is possible that La Spirotechnique has some available in Europe, but I don't know of a source.

A new diver seeking used double hose regulators would be best leave the two hose rugulators alone, as most (even those that say their hoses are in good shape) are not maintained in divable condition. The flutter exhalation valve for the USD double hose regulators are nearly extinct (I think I got the last two available form Mar-Vel). Because of the state and availability of parts, I would not recommend using a double hose regulator to someone just getting into winter diving.

SeaRat

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I mentioned the SNARK regulator above as the only one I know of that is currently on the market. I'm not endorsing this regulator design for preventing regulator freeze. The SNARK configuration is mostly protected, but there is an overpressure relief valve (advertised at times by Nemrod a "third stage") that is exposed to the water. This relief valve is there because this regulator uses an upstream second stage, and without the relief valve the regulator could become dangerous. It is this relief valve that is potentially exposed to freeze.

Most other two hose regulators have both the first stage and the second stage within the air environment of the regulator case. All US Divers two hose regulators are configured this way. However, the Sportsways double hose regulators (Duel Air and Hydro Twin) have an exposed first stage that may also be subject to freeze problems.

SeaRat

 

[Bob3]

Is someone making the Nemrod again? I darn near cried when they closed shop about 3 - 4 years ago.

New duckbills are currently being made (along with other rubber parts for us double hosers)
Check out Vintage Scuba Supply:
http://www.vintagescubasupply.com/hoses.html