Regs need servicing...

[SeaJay]

Okay, I've been sweating bullets for the past hour, even though the entire R380 is only $100 part. You'd think I'm worried about a $10,000 part.

It's all apart... I'm taking a break.

By the way, Genesis... I really appreciate the information that you sent recently... It's been exceedingly helpful.

I learned a lot tonight... So far, so good. Something tells me that the other second stage is going to be easier, because I know what to expect.

Amazingly, I've managed not to screw up anything... Or mar any surfaces. I'm amazed at myself.

Wow... So that's what they mean by "seat," and THAT is what they mean by "engraving."

I can't believe how simple this thing is.

I'll come back when I'm done my break...

Genesis once bubbled...
Take off hose and remove cover. There is a pin on the outside of the case that locks the cover; it is not necessary unless you absolutely need the "Scubapro" logo to line up on reassembly

Remove the collar at the outside of the stage. For older R190s and such there is a hex nut. For R380s the outside collar comes off. Older R190s and such have a hex nut on the outside, newer R380s have a plastic spline nut and the airtube itself unscrews into two pieces (there is a flat that is exposed when you remove the plastic jam nut - be careful not to damage the threads!)

The air tube will separate into two parts; you're holding one, the second is inside the stage.

Push out the inside part from the outside.

That can be disassembled into the seat plug, spring, lever, and nut.

The outside part has the seat adjuster in it, which has an O-ring around the outside of it. Back it out all the way and once its unthreaded push it out with a soft tool (e.g. wood skewer, blunt end, etc) Remove the exhaust cover and remove the exhaust valve, then turn the opposite side plug 1/8th turn (with a spanner or very thin needle-nose pliars as a spanner) and push it out from the inside.

You now have all the parts.

Remove all O-rings and clean the parts. Replace O-rings (there are only a few!) If the seat is badly engraved consider replacing it. Note that R380s and R190s often can be tuned perfectly well even with a pretty-severely engraved seat; visual inspection of it is not necessarily indicative of its ability to properly seal.

Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.

Yeah, it really is that easy.

Tuning the R380 or R190 consists of leaving the opposite side plug out. Then you set the lever height with the inline adjuster, and the seat spring tension with the nut. Both affect each other, and the lever height! The goal is to get the lever to JUST touch the diaphram, under pressure, with the seat spring set so that you have about 0.75 - 1" of cracking pressure. Plug the hole where the opposite-side plug goes with your finger when testing, or put the plug in BACKWARDS (it will seal on the O-ring boss, but not go in very far - you can then pull it back out easily!) Note that with some new R380s that just BARELY engages the nylock part of the nut, and that its a real bear to set as the nylock retracts inside the seat carrier too far for a common nutdriver to reach it well - whcih makes it lots of fun to set. I have one that I have to remove the cover for each "trial"; it REALLY pizzes me off. All my other R190/R380s don't do that to me. The older R190 assembly has more clearance and doesn't suffer from this.

For initial settings put the nut on roughly where it was before you disassembled the reg, and the orifice adjustment so the lever is just below the diaphram, then put the diaphram, washer and cover back on, pressurize it and do the adjustments. If you have one of the "fun" ones that won't allow you to adjust the nylock with the lever up you get to take the cover off and push the lever down every time you change it - that gets old real fast, but its the only way if you have one of those "nice" units unless you have a shaved-down nutdriver (very thinwall.)

Note that reusing the nylock is possible BUT it is very important to be sure that it "grips"; if it spins loose and falls off the reg will deliver no air at all! Not good! If in doubt replace the nylock.

Parts kits for most SP regs are available on eBAY. If you use generic O-ring replacements (perfectly fine on seconds, and in MOST places on firsts, but NOT ALL PLACES - use EPDM if you're diving Nitrox rather than Buna or Viton) and get your stainless nylocks from the boat store (a few cents each) a few kits will last you a LONG time, since all you will ever need out of them are the "funny" O-rings and seats.

Get your EPDM O-rings from air-oil - a very complete kit will run you under $20.

 

[SeaJay]

Feel like elaborating on the process of adjusting the cracking pressure for these "nonadjustable" R380's? How do I balance adjusting the inside nylock nut with adjusting the actual placement of the seat (inside the hose opening)?

What's the process?

 

[Genesis]

OK, start with the nylock JUST engaged (the nylon part), the cover OFF, and the crown (inline adjustment) set so the lever just touches the diaphram when you set it in there loosely on top of the lever and in the groove.

SLOWLY turn the pressure on. If the seat is too loose (it probably will be) you will get a freeflow. Leave the air cracked (so its a small freeflow and not a huge one!) and tighten the nylock a bit, and turn the crown in a bit at a time until it JUST STOPS freeflowing with the air turned all the way on, and the lever is still JUST touching the diaphram.

That's the "rough" adjustment.

Now put the cover back on and go to the sink. Check the cracking pressure. It will probably (if you were careful with the above!) be rediculously low. That's cool - its a good starting point. You now know how low you can set that reg in cracking pressure.

The idea here is that the lever should JUST touch the diaphram with the reg assembled in free air and under pressure. You do not want it loose (it will "rattle" if shaken if the lever is too loose) but you ALSO do not want preload on the lever, as that makes it very difficult for the diaphram to move inward (it has to overcome the preload), and that is what makes the valve open.

So now what you're going to do is slowly adjust BOTH the inline and nylock in tandem (that is, crank in the inline a bit, the lever will get loose, then crank in the nylock a bit until its back to being just up on the diaphram) and retest. Make VERY SMALL adjustments and always do the CROWN first, since that will loosen the lever (you then tighten it back up with the nylock.)

Continue until the cracking pressure is where you want it.

BOTH moves RAISE the cracking pressure since both add load to the spring in the airtube (which is what keeps the demand valve closed.) The trick is to balance both actions (or their converses) so you end up with the desired cracking pressure and the lever just touching the diaphram. Its a tricky adjustment the first few times you do it.

For each adjustment you will need to put the "other end" plug back in (put it in backwards so it seals but is easily removed with your fingers), do a cracking pressure test, if unsatisfactory adjust both in tandem again and repeat. When you're happy put the plug back in the right way - you're done.

It should breathe quite smoothly, but those regs will never be as smooth as a balanced second, even when very carefully tuned. The 380s also don't seem to tune up as nicely as the 190s that I have either; their smaller diaphram diameter might have something to do with that......

 

[SeaJay]

...Checked a PM or two, sat on the front porch with a glass of southern-style sweet tea, and now I'm ready to go.

Thanks a bazillion, Gen...

Okay, reassembling now...

 

[SeaJay]

I've almost got this thing reassembled. Yes, I realize it's taken me all night. I'm-a lookin' at my dashboard, and my "Don't Care" meter is in the red. :haha:

This has been a great experience.

Here's my question... I've got the "air tube reassembled. There is a giant O-ring that goes around the widest part of the tube, and presses against the sides of the plastic housing... No problems there.

However, I've got another O-ring, and I'm not sure if it's supposed to go between the two halves of the tube (with the valve and seat in it), the metal tube and the plastic "washer" (funky looking "washer") on the outside, or the plastic washer and the plastic knurled nut (the splined, last piece of plastic before the hose connects).

Can you tell me which position this should be in?

For the life of me, I can't remember where it's supposed to go.

Sorry this has taken me so long... It's been educational for me.

 

[Genesis]

outside the plastic nut and provides some friction for the hose connection (it is NOT a seal).

This assumes we're talking about "as-shipped" - most of my regs don't have that O-ring any more

It should fit over the airtube, but NOT over any of the groves for sealing (remember, there is one on the plug for the opposite side of the reg!)

 

[SeaJay]

In your absence, I assembled it without, since the schematic shows that it didn't belong. Glad I know why it was there, however... I thought it might be a hint to how badly it was reassembled. Good to know it wasn't.

Bad news: I set up that reg last night and followed your instructions to the letter. In hooking it up to my first stage (with nothing else attached; the other ports simply had plugs in them) I got nothing but a constant freeflow. I mean, it'd be okay for a while, and if it sat for a couple of seconds the second stage would begin to freeflow just a little.

Not sure what was wrong, I hooked up the S550 second stage... The one I have not opened up yet. Guess what? It does exactly the same thing.

...Which tells me that the first stage is not keeping intermmediate pressure. It's leaking "up." This was my original complaint, and exactly why I brought my regs in to have them serviced in the first place. I complained to EE that my regs were abnormally sensitive, and they put them on a machine and told me my intermmediate pressure was like 165 psi... Out of spec. Unfortunately, it was not adjusting... They could not fix the problem by adjusting the IP.

...So they recommended having the regs serviced. A week later, I brought them to the shop in Savannah... And y'all lknow the story.

Now, I have no idea what the IP is... Or how bad the creep is... But it's much worse now than before. Now, it creeps up so high that the second stages begin to freeflow. Before, they were just "sensitive"... They never actually freeflowed.

At this point, they're all unusable because, I suspect, my first stage will not hold IP. I even tried wetting the first stage, thinking that perhaps water pressure was required to get it to seat properly. No dice.

...So before doing anything whatsoever, I need to do the first stage. Not so fast, though... The first stage requires special tools (I understand) that I do not have. I at least need an IP pressure guage.

Things aren't looking good for my dive on Saturday.

The lost sleep alone is frustrating... The fact that the regs still don't work is maddening.

At this point, I have three choices:

1. Buy the tools (which I'm going to want anyway) and crack open that first stage and check things out. I'm not crazy about this idea, since I feel that if a skilled eye cannot find the problem, I most likely can't either. Furthermore, if I find a bad seat or seal, I can't get a hold of the parts to replace it.

2. Go back to the shop in Savannah and complain that the $120 I spent did me no good... In fact, I'm worse off now than I was when I brought the regs in. The problem is that I don't know if I want to put myself through the abuse again... Not to mention the long drive time and certain frustration with dealing with those people. What's worse is that if I get the regs back again (with them supposedly fixed again) then I'm in no better shape than I was yesterday... I'll have regs that *supposedly* work, but may or may not. I don't have any confidence at this point. By the way, before I left the shop I DID see, for a fact, that IP was holding at 130 psi... So apparently the fix was temporary. What are the chances that I'm going to get another "temporary" fix?

3. Package all of my regs up and send them back to LeisurePro. Exploring this option, I called them this morning and inquired. I told them the regs were a few months old, and told them about the problem. I even told them that they'd been worked on by a ScubaPro shop in an effort to fix, and that I was out $120 and still did not have regs to dive with. I inquired about returning the regs and buying a new setup - maybe Apeks this time. (I'm suddenly not fond of ScubaPro.) They simply said, "Package them up and send them to us... We'll have our technicians look at them and attempt a repair. If we can't repair them, we'll send them back to ScubaPro and they'll either fix them or replace them." By the way, LeisurePro has an excellent reputation for taking care of their customers, so I have some confidence in their process. The problem is that I'll be out a set of regs for two weeks if their techs fix them, and four weeks if ScubaPro fixes or replaces them. Grrrr...

...And still, there's no guarantee that things will be fixed when I get them back. Heck, I don't know how these guys like to set up regs... But perhaps if they're fixed, I can handle the adjustments. That is, assuming that the IP is both stable and in-spec.

At this point, I'm even considering a flat-out purchase of some new regs... A $500 "surprise."

Anyway, what are peoples' suggestions?

 

[Genesis]

almost certainly is responsible for this.

You simply NEED an IP gauge to know.

The bad news is that if they damaged the HP seat during installation (its possible) or the poppet in the first, then it has to be replaced. There's no way around this. And without the parts, you're hosed.

If its just a bad assembly job, or a lack of cleaning (they just tossed in a parts kit) then fixing THAT will solve it - but there's a good chance that is NOT what is going on.

I don't have any immediate suggestions..... since I don't have any parts kits for that first Otherwise, I'd say bring it down here

How cold is the water you usually dive in? If not below 50F, you might want to consider finding yourself a SP Mk10 for a first, and either keeping it "in reserve" or just switching to it. They're simple, easy to get parts kits for, breathe REALLY well and are a time-tested design that is simple enough to rebuild in your sleep.

That's the path I'm taking....

(Heck, come down here this w/e and you can even TRY one Looks like we're going out Saturday, and I have a "spare" Mk10/G200/R190 setup... you'll need to bring your long and short hoses, and bungie, as they're set up as "normal recreational" regs right now.... they even have a Vyper set as a gauge on them Bring the screwed up ones and I'll check the IP for 'ya )

 

[HammerNoMore]

SeaJay once bubbled...
At this point, I'm even considering a flat-out purchase of some new regs... A $500 "surprise."

Sounds like with the type and amount of diving that you do, SeaJay, that would be the best option. Get yourself a new reg and send that one back to LP. Then you'll have both and will never have to worry about how long it takes to service one.

I know a lot of people insist that there are only two manufacturers ScubaPro and Apeks. But since you are going down the road of servicing the regs yourself, you might consider taking a look at Dive Rite's.

Their regs are signficantly less expensive than the other two. The big plus, however, is that you can download the service manual online in PDF and get the parts direct from Dive Rite Express.

James

 

[ScoobieDooo]

SeaJay,
Apek's reg are amazingly simple devices, at least in my opinion. They breathe super and are simple to service.

Heck, I can even e-mail you a WinZipped Power Point Presentation of an Apek's instructional presentation.

I liked the idea of the ATX50's DST4 being a cold water reg AND dry sealed against contaminants, etc.

Good luck buddy...

You NEED an IP gauge and Vance Harlow's book...