DIR- GUE Reflections on Fundamentals

[jadairiii]

.... I've seen C1 students been given a provisional.....

I "earned" a provisional in my C1 class, and honestly, best thing my instructor did for me. I went home, trained my butt off and came back a much better diver.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

All in all I like the system. I like the didactics behind them. It clearly works, producing divers which at every certificate post course are immediately ready to do the dives they practiced to do, it produces in general good buddies/team mates.
<snip>
All in all I'm still drinking the koolaid ;-)

I wouldn't say you are drinking koolaid here. As someone with a toe in the GUE world, I think your comments are factual. The results of GUE courses speak for themselves. If I was staying in OC, I'd continue on the GUE route, at least through T1. But I had started the TDI route for trimix and now CC, so I'm continuing that path.

 

[DiveDay]

The results of GUE courses speak for themselves. If I was staying in OC, I'd continue on the GUE route, at least through T1.

I agree, and I drank the koolaid about as hard as a newbie can. Not sure if I'll ever go the tech route but I really do want to eventually reach the fundies tech pass proficiency. I very much have a love-hate affair with GUE. I think their conservative approach and courses are excellent, and all their instructors I've met are exemplary divers but they sure don't make it easy. The community here is tiny and it looks like the minimum level to be able to dive with them on any regular basis is T1 + DPV (and by that I mean the course and an XK1 'cause nothing else will do, haha).

Out of necessity, I've been doing all my diving lately with non-GUE folks and came to the realization that (you'll laugh) you don't have to be a GUE diver to have impressive buoyancy and comfort in the water. I'm still at the stage where I learn something new every dive, so at least that keeps me going.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree, and I drank the koolaid about as hard as a newbie can. Not sure if I'll ever go the tech route but I really do want to eventually reach the fundies tech pass proficiency. I very much have a love-hate affair with GUE. I think their conservative approach and courses are excellent, and all their instructors I've met are exemplary divers but they sure don't make it easy. The community here is tiny and it looks like the minimum level to be able to dive with them on any regular basis is T1 + DPV.

Out of necessity, I've been doing all my diving lately with non-GUE folks and came to the realization that (you'll laugh) you don't have to be a GUE diver to have impressive buoyancy and comfort in the water. I'm still at the stage where I learn something new every dive, so at least that keeps me going.

Here is Seattle, there are a lot of people inside the community who haven't passed T1, and do a lot of recreational dives together. They are a welcoming group, well skilled, but not all have continued down the tech path, and that's fine. Lots of recreational diving to do.

 

[loosenit2]

One of the lessons the OP observed in his review was that passing fundies without a buddy to practice with before the class or a break in between fundies in which to practice was not possible in his estimation. Several posters immediately following agreed with him, and quite frankly so do I. I took a 2 day UTD essentials class and to be quite frank my diving did not improve during the class, there just was not enough time , and doubling that to 4 days would not have mattered. What did happen was I came back from the course and began some focused training, recording myself underwater and self critiquing. It was the subsequent training, informed by essentials, that resulted In improvement.

I mentioned in a previous post that a local UTD instructors model of selling individual 1 day coaching sessions and then certifying folks when they meet the standard, better fit the reality of how folks learn, and was better nested in the original GUE concept. Others disagreed with that. For one I will say that the rigid structure and dogma of GUE has led me away from them, despite some of the good they have brought to my diving.

 

[Lorenzoid]

One of the lessons the OP observed in his review was that passing fundies without a buddy to practice with before the class or a break in between fundies in which to practice was not possible in his estimation. Several posters immediately following agreed with him, and quite frankly so do I. I took a 2 day UTD essentials class and to be quite frank my diving did not improve during the class, there just was not enough time , and doubling that to 4 days would not have mattered. What did happen was I came back from the course and began some focused training, recording myself underwater and self critiquing. It was the subsequent training, informed by essentials, that resulted In improvement.

I mentioned in a previous post that a local UTD instructors model of selling individual 1 day coaching sessions and then certifying folks when they meet the standard, better fit the reality of how folks learn, and was better nested in the original GUE concept. Others disagreed with that. For one I will say that the rigid structure and dogma of GUE has led me away from them, despite some of the good they have brought to my diving.

I'm not sure from your description what UTD offers and what you're saying is different from GUE. I only know GUE, though I have no negative opinion of UTD from what I have heard about it. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply GUE instructors offer don't do coaching sessions. You have to take Fundies first, of course. Not so with UTD? You can just buy one or two coaching sessions without ever having taken Essentials and then get certified when you meet the standard?

Again, I don't know about Essentials, but in general, I would remind people who come across this thread in the future that there's a lot more to these systems than just the rote mechanical skills. In other words, for the benefit of those who aren't familiar with the GUE system, part of Fundies teaches you the mechanical skills and the rest teaches things like dive planning and other components of the overall GUE "system." Some people take Fundies just to improve their skills, but GUE's goal is to indoctrinate you in the dogma--no, wait, what I meant was--to teach you a whole, integrated system. All kidding aside, are you saying UTD Essentials plus a coaching session or two might be better than the GUE Fundies route for people who only want to learn the mechanics and not so much a system as a whole?

 

[beester]

I agree, and I drank the koolaid about as hard as a newbie can. Not sure if I'll ever go the tech route but I really do want to eventually reach the fundies tech pass proficiency. I very much have a love-hate affair with GUE. I think their conservative approach and courses are excellent, and all their instructors I've met are exemplary divers but they sure don't make it easy. The community here is tiny and it looks like the minimum level to be able to dive with them on any regular basis is T1 + DPV (and by that I mean the course and an XK1 'cause nothing else will do, haha).

Out of necessity, I've been doing all my diving lately with non-GUE folks and came to the realization that (you'll laugh) you don't have to be a GUE diver to have impressive buoyancy and comfort in the water. I'm still at the stage where I learn something new every dive, so at least that keeps me going.

Very funny Diveday. You know I've got quite a lot of GUE history, know really a lot of GUE people and count some instructors as close friends. Been involved in some kick ass projects and even organised one (I believe the sole thing in my live that I'm really really proud of).

That said I totally relate with what you say. I had a very love-hate relationship with GUE too. Back in the day of GIIII and the almost nazi like Dutch DIR (frogkick.nl) dudes. It delayed me getting into GUE for at least 3 years, and in the end the trigger was a near death experience in the North Sea.

I have certificates from a lot of agencies and teach for 2 (not GUE). I literally dive with everybody, and while the diving level let's say 15 years ago was much more black and white, and what GUE did counted a bit like "black magic" it's much more accessible now, you find a lot on internet and youtube... meaning you see loads of divers who've never taken any GUE/UTD/Innerexplorers/whatnot course but still are very good in the water... Because they've researched themselves, because they read boards like this, or because they had instructors that drank some of the koolaid (from close by or far away). I totally love this, the fact that simple (but ooh so hard) basics in diving are becoming a little bit more the norm (at least in my local diving community).

So in general in my comfort level I'll dive with anybody, including cave dives and tech dives. We'll need to do some talking before the dive, and maybe some warm up dives. BUT if I'm getting close to my diving experience limits, I'm diving GUE, and GUE buddies I know, because standardisation and tough courses, and divers who you know do the dives, mean something in the end.

PS: I don't know your community, but I'm following wetb4igetinthewater. If they are a bit gun ho, probably you are talking to the noobs, not so experienced GUE divers who still think they have to proof something. Most of the experienced GUE divers I know, are really super mellow and just love diving with anybody.

 

[loosenit2]

I'm not sure from your description what UTD offers and what you're saying is different from GUE. I only know GUE, though I have no negative opinion of UTD from what I have heard about it. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply GUE instructors offer don't do coaching sessions. You have to take Fundies first, of course. Not so with UTD? You can just buy one or two coaching sessions without ever having taken Essentials and then get certified when you meet the standard?

Again, I don't know about Essentials, but in general, I would remind people who come across this thread in the future that there's a lot more to these systems than just the rote mechanical skills. In other words, for the benefit of those who aren't familiar with the GUE system, part of Fundies teaches you the mechanical skills and the rest teaches things like dive planning and other components of the overall GUE "system." Some people take Fundies just to improve their skills, but GUE's goal is to indoctrinate you in the dogma--no, wait, what I meant was--to teach you a whole, integrated system. All kidding aside, are you saying UTD Essentials plus a coaching session or two might be better than the GUE Fundies route for people who only want to learn the mechanics and not so much a system as a whole?

Not quite what I was saying. As I took essentials it was a 2 day class (with multiple academic sessions before the class) just like fundies.

After I took essentials I found out about another UTD instructor who uses a different approach. You pay for individual coaching sessions, at 95 USD per session, and then you pass when you meet all of the required skills. They say it takes the average person 6 to 7 sessions. This structure allows folks to take a session, practice, take another session etc. This model makes a lot of sense to me. This model is only for essentials.

The version of essentials I took and the version mentioned above still require demonstrating all of the dive planning, individual, and team skills necessary to be an effective team diver within their system, it is just a different delivery system.

As an aside I was going to take fundies but instructor had to cancel class after I had done a lot of the academics so I did essentials instead. As such I can see some of the differences between GUE and UTD but not all of them. I am also now doing AN/DP with an amazing local instructor who is going above and beyond TDI requirements with the team, in fact we are doing 12 dives total during the course over 2 months.

 

[beester]

Again, I don't know about Essentials, but in general, I would remind people who come across this thread in the future that there's a lot more to these systems than just the rote mechanical skills. In other words, for the benefit of those who aren't familiar with the GUE system, part of Fundies teaches you the mechanical skills and the rest teaches things like dive planning and other components of the overall GUE "system." Some people take Fundies just to improve their skills, but GUE's goal is to indoctrinate you in the dogma--no, wait, what I meant was--to teach you a whole, integrated system. All kidding aside, are you saying UTD Essentials plus a coaching session or two might be better than the GUE Fundies route for people who only want to learn the mechanics and not so much a system as a whole?

THIS!!!!! Really! It's too much content to put as a quote in a footer, but this!

Because of standardisation, GUE makes planning and doing (sometimes) very complicated dives easy! The problem is you only start seeing the benefits when you start doing a lot of tech or cave dives and just notice how easy it is with a team that is on par and speaks the same "language". Planning a complicated dive takes literally just minutes, because there is so much stuff that you don't really need to discuss anymore. It's already well known or not needed because you use the same gasses, deco model, procedures, communication.

It frustrates me enormously that people always (more in the past before youtube) focus on GEAR or SKILLS when talking about GUE. As if it's some magic trick that you learn in fundies. It's not. The real deal is that you know that the basics are on par after fundies and that divers speak the same language when it comes to diveplanning, gas, communication, procedures. And this doesn't come easy. I have now an (IANTD) rec trimix class, where both students have done fundies (rec pass), but after didn't really connect with other GUE divers or practice what they've learned. They focussed too much on the technical skills, but when I let them plan a dive.. they forgot lots of stuff (even GUE EDGE). It's those basics that needs to become ingrained, the every 5 min awareness check of your equipment, yourself and your team, the gas planning, the minimum deco, the dive briefing, etc... not basic 5 or a valve drill.

Anyway...going too far off topic ;-)

 

[beester]

Not quite what I was saying. As I took essentials it was a 2 day class (with multiple academic sessions before the class) just like fundies.

After I took essentials I found out about another UTD instructor who uses a different approach. You pay for individual coaching sessions, at 95 USD per session, and then you pass when you meet all of the required skills. They say it takes the average person 6 to 7 sessions. This structure allows folks to take a session, practice, take another session etc. This model makes a lot of sense to me. This model is only for essentials.

The version of essentials I took and the version mentioned above still require demonstrating all of the dive planning, individual, and team skills necessary to be an effective team diver within their system, it is just a different delivery system.

As an aside I was going to take fundies but instructor had to cancel class after I had done a lot of the academics so I did essentials instead. As such I can see some of the differences between GUE and UTD but not all of them. I am also now doing AN/DP with an amazing local instructor who is going above and beyond TDI requirements with the team, in fact we are doing 12 dives total during the course over 2 months.

I'm a full blown GUE fanboy... but don't focus too much on the differences. I think drinking from the different koolaids (GUE, UTD, AN/DP from TDI), in general will make you a better diver! You are right by the way on the didactical delivery system. Some methods or scheduling works better for some than others. Having options is never a bad thing. Specially fundies/essentials which is basically the hardest course because the entry level can be all over the place, benefits from a more modular approach.