Redesigning AOW

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If I were making the rules to obtain an AOW cert, the first prerequisite would be to complete at least 50 ocean dives which would include 10% of dives over 100 feet, at least 20 CESA'a from various depths, 10 air-share ascents from various depths, 10 night dives and a decent navigational, solo dive and rescue course. Then the AOW might mean something to the diver rather thatn a cash cow for the certifying agencies and the LDS's. ,

no No NO!!!! People have to understand that the Open water class is an extremely efficient means to allow people to blow bubbles 60 ft down in optimal conditions. Most all divers that finish open water are just barely competant to do ANYTHING. But what can we expect from the ridiculously simple and abreviated course?

My feeling is that most new divers NEED to immediately be enrolled in a follow up class ASAP. This is a dangerous time for them in their training/diving career and they really should be supervised; either by an instructor or by friends that are very experienced and who are willing to help. My feeling is that the AOW is very effective at getting people just a little more experience and hopefully in a relativel safe environment. Calling it "advanced" is certainly a misnomer, but who realy cares what they call it?

I used to strongly encourage my students to immediately enroll in AOW when they were finished with the OW course. If they do not take the next course and don't dive again for 3-4 months, they WILL be very rusty on their skills and their confidence is often low. Conversely, if they quickly do a couple more challenging dives under supervision and complete a NIGHT dive, I think this builds a lot of confidence and also reinforces all the basic skills. I pushed continuing training through out the OW course, because I think it s worthwhile. ANY advanced training is better than none.

Anyone who brags about being an "advanced" diver is usually an idiot, so I don't really care what the course is called. Today's AOW is very similar to what the 10-week Basic scuba diver class I took over 30 yrs ago.
 
I was sold that AOW was really "OW II" when I signed up. Heck I just wanted to dive and didn't know anyone yet so I signed up. I think they should get rid of the advanced label. Getting that plastic in no way preps a diver to go out and start doing some of the many dives the card gives you access to. Experience does. I like the idea of "combining" OW, AOW. But not just combining, revamp the whole OW-AOW track to include much more usefull skills from the get go. And I like what others have said about pulling out ALL the gear us divers use from rec to tech and exposing new divers to it. I would include a healthy number of dives throughout the course. These dives would build on experience, planning and gear. But like others have said, it's hard to sell it in the real world with all the cheap hack courses out there. I know for me I would have been way into that type of training up front. If the shop did it right I would have spent mucho $ getting to where I wanted to be early on.
 
Instead of redesigning AOW maybe it would be better to eliminate it and go back to to what the scuba course was 30 years ago before it was split into OW and AOW. Of course that will never happen because of $$$$
 
Exactly......"what you don't have your C-card yet? Let me transfer you to the card dept. in India.."
 
Instead of redesigning AOW maybe it would be better to eliminate it and go back to to what the scuba course was 30 years ago before it was split into OW and AOW. Of course that will never happen because of $$$$

Yep... My LDS owner is an OLD NAUI Divemaster (1976)... He said that the OW courses that he used to work back then were 14 weeks long, meeting up once a week, and were basically the equivalent of today's OW, AOW, Rescue, and the physiology/physics/deco theory portion of the DM class.
 
......and the physiology/physics/deco theory portion of the DM class.

Yeah I really enjoyed that part of the DM class. It's too bad I had to take that level of class just to get that important information. I think every diver should go through at least some of that info. It's one thing to be told "don't hold your breath" but it's another thing to really understand what's going on with your body, during a dive, in much greater detail.
 
no No NO!!!! People have to understand that the Open water class is an extremely efficient means to allow people to blow bubbles 60 ft down in optimal conditions. Most all divers that finish open water are just barely competant to do ANYTHING. But what can we expect from the ridiculously simple and abreviated course?

My feeling is that most new divers NEED to immediately be enrolled in a follow up class ASAP. This is a dangerous time for them in their training/diving career and they really should be supervised; either by an instructor or by friends that are very experienced and who are willing to help.

I'm with you this far except that I don't think it's wise to sign up for another class with the same folks who left you in such a dangerous position in the first place...especially after they clearly state that as an OW diver you are qualified to plan and conduct OW dives.
My feeling is that the AOW is very effective at getting people just a little more experience and hopefully in a relativel safe environment. Calling it "advanced" is certainly a misnomer, but who realy cares what they call it?

I used to strongly encourage my students to immediately enroll in AOW when they were finished with the OW course.


Anyone who brags about being an "advanced" diver is usually an idiot, so I don't really care what the course is called. Today's AOW is very similar to what the 10-week Basic scuba diver class I took over 30 yrs ago.[/QUOTE]

What it's called is very important. We know what an OW diver is...they can dive in open water. A nitrox diver? trimix? Cave? Dry suit? They are all fairly descriptive names.

Now enter "Advanced open Water" Wouldn't you at least expect that a certified "Advanced Open Water Diver" Would have had "advanced" training in the basic skills that should be taught in OW? A review of the training standards clearly shows that this is NOT the case.
 
I see a lot I agree with in both Mike and Bob's posts (as usual) even though they differ so much.

As to my AOW experience 5+ years ago, there was actually one girl in the class that needed help setting up her equipment. Me and another student were the only two somewhat competent divers taking the class, and most of the instructor's time was spent teaching remedial skills to the bad divers (none of which to my knowledge dive anymore).

Like someone said, it is hard to address AOW without addressing the entire system of dive training currently being taught. OW in its most common form, teaches you basic skills that you in no way need to master, or continue practicing. These skills are not brought up again until the Divemaster level in most cases, and even there, they are not taught in a practical setting. My point is, there is a lot of growth and learning that needs to take place outside the classroom setting with the current system. In a lot of cases that does happen, but in still others it does not.

The idea of requiring a specific number of dives in between some certification levels is not a bad idea, but people learn at different rates, and some people will do 20 dives without practicing a single skill.

Practically speaking, there is also the problem of competing systems. No matter how much you change AOW, it will still be AOW, which the shop in town is teaching for $99 with the purchase of a new regulator or BC. Sure, it will be a better learning experience, but the shop in town claims theirs teaches everything you need. So the only way to realistically get an improved AOW is to make it mandatory across the board for all training agencies in town. This will not happen anytime soon. There is simply too much of a market for the current class.

One thing that I believe has a shot at making a difference is to offer a skills based diving endorsement in addition to the dive instruction. Instead of having a set curriculum, training materials, etc, this would just be a test. The skills tested would represent the "end goal" of a certain certification level. There are a lot of instructors that truly seem to offer a good course for their students. All of these courses are almost completely individual, but I would bet that the skills that they instill in their students can be pretty well summed up in a common list. If we had an endorsement, several things are possible:

1. Any instructor, regardless of training affiliation would be able to certify a diver for an endorsement based on their performance on the specified tasks. This would make it integrate into the current system fairly easily, and instructors would not be put under the financial/time pressure of changing affiliations. There could be a quick internet training for instructors wanting to give out the endorsement. The instructors would also probably have to prove their own skills and themselves have the endorsement.

2. Students would have a definite selection criteria to help weed out the good courses from the not-so good ones. The instructors of the good courses would also have an additional certification to differentiate their courses from the $99 course offered by the shop in town. Students like cards. If they get another, it gives them a discrete and measurable difference to your program.

3. Dive Operations who require a certain cert level for liability reasons could jump over this idea since it would be skills based, and not "take your course, get your card".

4. It could be used as a wicket to decide when students are ready for the next level of certification. Even in Bob's class, there are probably some students who may take longer to get things than others. This would let someone have their OW Cert cards, go out and practice the skills so that they can get the endorsement. It gives them something specific and measurable to shoot for.

Anyway, there are good/bad points to something like this, the most obvious of which is deciding which set of skills should be included, and how we make sure they are measured appropriately. It would also be a hard sell differentiating these standards from the "PADI Minimum standards" set forth in their course outlines, etc. Still, I can't think of any better way to integrate with the current mainstream approach to training.

Tom
 
Yep,

I've logged 62 'salt' water dives, out of nearly 300 dives.... Out of those "ocean" dives only my dive in the Puget Sound would come close to being as challenging as our local fresh water dives as the rest of my "ocean dives" have been in Turks and Caicos and Cozumel.

Nope, Cozumel was in the Carribean Sea, same with Turks and Caicos. Puget Sound is definitely not Ocean. I guess my point was that the skills you learn diving can be different based on the different environments, but being in an Ocean means little to nothing (except maybe that land is farther away.) The skills learned in a cold, low-vis quarry are different than the ones you learn on a high surge, high current NC Wreck dive, but neither dive requires more skill, they just require different skills.
 
I've yet to fail anyone from this class ... but I have told several people they weren't ready to take it ...
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This integrity is missing from a lot of training! Failure rate is not a quality indicator if training.

Your course sounds great by the way.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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