Redesigning AOW

[MXGratefulDiver]

Simply put, none of their diving depends on them doing anything else. If that's what they do, and it hasn't bitten them after however many dives they have been on, they don't see the need for anything more. They might change it up based on a couple situations they have found it useful in real life, but that is reactionary more than deterministic. For the most part, planning a dive to end at a specified PSI will work on most recreational dives.

Pretty well sums it up ... for most recreational divers, that system works reasonably well.

Where it starts to fall short is when people start doing deeper dives. I can think of six specific instances in the past five years where people have died in the PNW due to running OOA. In all but one case, they were doing deep dives with what I would've considered insufficient air for the depth they were planning to go. With reasonble gas management skills, it would've been possible for them to know that before starting the dive, and either changing their plan or taking a larger tank.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[b1gcountry]

It will work until/unless something goes wrong at depth.

Yes- although it also depends on when something goes wrong. If they encounter a problem during the first half, there are no worries (at least no additional worries related to air supply). It might even work itself out if at the end of a a shore dive with a forward profile, where they are shallow at the end of the dive.

Deep square profiles, High current situations where you would like to surface along the anchor line, and probably others pose more problems that other types of diving.

Tom

 

[MikeFerrara]

Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver
Most dive instructors I know think gas management involves looking at your gauge every five minutes and aborting the dive at 500 psi. They honestly don't see any value in putting more effort into it than that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
At the risk of going for seven years (LOL), Why do you suppose that is?

Simply put, none of their diving depends on them doing anything else. If that's what they do, and it hasn't bitten them after however many dives they have been on, they don't see the need for anything more. They might change it up based on a couple situations they have found it useful in real life, but that is reactionary more than deterministic. For the most part, planning a dive to end at a specified PSI will work on most recreational dives.

There is some truth to what you say but it isn't the answer I was looking for. The reason is that it's the only gas management that they have ever learned.

I don't know about you but I've seen LOTS of divers either run out of air or just barely get back to the boat. Further, I think we all know of dives that are routinely done with insufficient reserves...it works out because nothing goes wrong and reserves aren't needed at all, but that's just luck.

Gas management is planning on turning or ending the dive with enough gas remaining to get you and a buddy back in the worst case situation where one diver has suffered a total gas loss at the furthest point in the dive.

On a shallow dive where you can surface anyplace, 500 PSI (volume?) might be fine. However, stating a turn pressure or ending pressure without stating conditions is nonsensical. Unfortunatly, some diving texts don't do that good. They simply recommend ending the dive with a few hundred PSI left. Great but when do you turn the dive in order for that to happen?...considering you might be donating gas to someone else at the time?

For proof that we're not just judging the agencies too harshly, all we need to do is look at the "deep diver" specialty courses that don't teach any meaningful gas management.

 

[b1gcountry]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba.../214163-dive-planning-thread.html#post3277808

FYI, if you want to talk about Dive planning without discussing formal training organizations/classes.

 

[8thElementDiver]

A caveat here ... price. I charge $250 for my class. Most instructors couldn't afford to put in the kind of time I do for that price. Profit isn't my motive ... I have a good job that pays me well. I teach because I enjoy teaching ... and what I enjoy the most is watching the progression of my students over the duration of the class. The majority of instructors ... even the very good ones ... wouldn't have the same motivations.

<snip>

If profit is your motive (as it should be in most cases) then that kind of instruction won't come at prices most scuba students are willing to pay.

The simple fact is that if you want good instruction, you need to be willing to pay for it ... in time, money, and effort.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree with most of your points, Bob, but I would posit that you (and others like you who don't teach for a profit) are a big reason why many divers think the AOW class isn't any good. Consider:
- If you offer the class cheaply because profit is not a motive for you (since you have another job where you make good money), other instructors who do need to make a profit are forced to offer their class cheaply to compete.
- Since they need to make a profit they need to stretch out their resources as much as possible, which often means they will create an inferior class--they get the students out as quickly as possible so they can make money by teaching more classes.
- Students who take your classes and have an awesome experience (it sounds like you're a great instructor), will come to expect the same level of service from all other instructors, at the same price level.
- Since you don't need to make a profit at teaching, you can afford to significantly raise the price of your class. (For example, double it.)
- By increasing the price of your class you demonstrate to students that they get what they pay for.
- Rely on word of mouth about your excellent classes to obtain students, rather than relying on a pricing structure that really does not help the students.

This has the potential to create a 2-tier pricing system that would allow other instructors to improve their classes, charge more, and make a profit without sacrificing what the students learn. Other instructors would continue to low-ball their prices and attract the people who feel that price is more important than quality of instruction.

In the Puget Sound region there are certainly enough people employed by good-paying companies who are looking for ways to spend that money, that you'd still get students for your classes at the higher prices.

However, by teaching at the low prices--even though you don't need to make any money at it--you are inadvertently hurting the quality of the classes that you want to improve. *You* might be doing a great job for that price, but so many other instructors aren't (and can't afford to), and you can't teach every student in the Puget Sound region, so some of the students are going to end up taking those crappy classes by instructors who need to move the cattle through just to survive because they don't have a 2nd good-paying job to fall back on.

It would take some time for potential students to adjust to the 2-tier pricing and realize that the higher cost is worth it. Which makes you the perfect instructor to start doing it, since you don't need to worry about making money at it while it gets up and running.

You want to improve AOW for students? Start charging more for it. Then show students they get what they pay for.

 

[Walter]

I agree Bob should charge more for his class, but he's not the cause of the poor classes. The agencies have designed AOW to be a poor class long before Bob started teaching. In fact, they designed it that way long before Bob started diving. Bob took an inadequate AOW class and added lots of good material which turned it into the excellent class he teaches.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I agree with most of your points, Bob, but I would posit that you (and others like you who don't teach for a profit) are a big reason why many divers think the AOW class isn't any good. Consider:
- If you offer the class cheaply because profit is not a motive for you (since you have another job where you make good money), other instructors who do need to make a profit are forced to offer their class cheaply to compete.
- Since they need to make a profit they need to stretch out their resources as much as possible, which often means they will create an inferior class--they get the students out as quickly as possible so they can make money by teaching more classes.
- Students who take your classes and have an awesome experience (it sounds like you're a great instructor), will come to expect the same level of service from all other instructors, at the same price level.
- Since you don't need to make a profit at teaching, you can afford to significantly raise the price of your class. (For example, double it.)
- By increasing the price of your class you demonstrate to students that they get what they pay for.
- Rely on word of mouth about your excellent classes to obtain students, rather than relying on a pricing structure that really does not help the students.

This has the potential to create a 2-tier pricing system that would allow other instructors to improve their classes, charge more, and make a profit without sacrificing what the students learn. Other instructors would continue to low-ball their prices and attract the people who feel that price is more important than quality of instruction.

In the Puget Sound region there are certainly enough people employed by good-paying companies who are looking for ways to spend that money, that you'd still get students for your classes at the higher prices.

However, by teaching at the low prices--even though you don't need to make any money at it--you are inadvertently hurting the quality of the classes that you want to improve. *You* might be doing a great job for that price, but so many other instructors aren't (and can't afford to), and you can't teach every student in the Puget Sound region, so some of the students are going to end up taking those crappy classes by instructors who need to move the cattle through just to survive because they don't have a 2nd good-paying job to fall back on.

It would take some time for potential students to adjust to the 2-tier pricing and realize that the higher cost is worth it. Which makes you the perfect instructor to start doing it, since you don't need to worry about making money at it while it gets up and running.

Respectfully disagree ... I think the reason why so many divers think the AOW class isn't any good is because the way most instructors teach it, it isn't any good.

Simply charging a higher price isn't going to make it any better.

I posit that any instructor out there could teach the same class I teach for the same money. The difference isn't a matter of profit, it's a matter of effort. Too many instructors see AOW as "easy money" ... and "teach" it accordingly. Students complain they didn't learn anything because their instructors didn't challenge them to learn ... they just went thru the motions of a few guided dives.

I'm offering an alternative to students who are willing to put some real work into using the class as a learning experience.

You want to improve AOW for students? Start charging more for it. Then show students they get what they pay for.

But I'm not the one who needs to improve my AOW class ... my students generally finish up the class raving about how much they improved by taking it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rollerboi]

What do you folks think about this way of approaching AOW? A little background - this is from a local dive club, not shop, that charges a set amount for a one year commitment to courses offered, not charging per course.

NOTE: PADI minimum standards dictate that the Advanced Open Water Diver certification may be earned by participating in just five Adventure dives from the list above. In PADI's education model each Adventure dive may be credited toward the associated specialty course. Generally speaking, we will NOT do this.


While that may be Ok for a very experienced Open Water or Adventure diver, it is certainly far below what we consider to be prudent training for an Advanced level diver. We will not certify an Advanced Open Water Diver with these bare mininum requirements, rather we require the completion of at least five whole specialty courses. Completing an additional two to five dives in each of five specialty courses will give the diver a much broader range of experience in a number of different locations and will have developed a much higher level of proficiency in the chosen specialty courses than the PADI minimum standards.

There seems to be no financial incentive for the folks offering the courses under this system, but all the benefit for people who truly want to better their diving.

 

[Buoyant1]

What do you folks think about this way of approaching AOW? A little background - this is from a local dive club, not shop, that charges a set amount for a one year commitment to courses offered, not charging per course.


There seems to be no financial incentive for the folks offering the courses under this system, but all the benefit for people who truly want to better their diving.

You say that there's no financial incentive, but what it the price of this course? Basically what it looks like they are doing is giving you the MASTER SCUBA DIVER course, but without Rescue. (don't you need 5 specialties PLUS Rescue for that?)

For me, my AOW course was adequete enough since it gave me a good overview of some of the specialties and as someone that had already logged 40 something dives to that point it was enough to be FUN rather than having that COURSE feel to it (and I learned some things as well) I've also taken a few full specialties (equipment, Nitrox, and Wreck) and plan on taking more to LEARN more (deep, peak buoyancy, maybe something along the lines of photography since this is what I'm interested in) After that I'm sure I'll want a few advanced courses (i.e. tech oriented)

Personally I think they should LOSE the "ADVANCED" and call it Open Water Part II...maybe that would settle some of you guys down a tad....

 

[rollerboi]

You say that there's no financial incentive, but what it the price of this course? Basically what it looks like they are doing is giving you the MASTER SCUBA DIVER course, but without Rescue. (don't you need 5 specialties PLUS Rescue for that?)

Ah, good way of looking at it. Hmm. Checking their website, their "Gold" level is a $300 one-time payment and includes Adventure, AOW, Rescue, and Master Diver. As well as all specialty courses. I plan to jump on this once they start offering some more stuff in 2008.