Recreational diving versus Technical? diving

[lamont]

On recreational/deep/non-cave dives the long hose can still be useful because:

- keeps all the regs where you can see / feel / hear a free flow.
- involves no octo holders which the reg can work loose from during a dive.
- involves no octo holders which will not release the reg when it is needed.
- can deliver a working reg to an OOA diver every time
- optimizes for the case where an OOA diver strips the reg out of your mouth
- the 7' hose is useful for swimming side-by-side upslope instead of doing a direct ascent

- it also simplifies reg recovery by simply going to the necklaced backup

 

[Luc Dupas]

So, "there is no added benefit to even considering a long hose" is pretty much wrong. And I don't believe this because of "religion", I believe it because of incidents like this one: ( http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=162074 )

Really ??? In our low viz waters it -unfortunately- does happen quite frequently that you're "overrun" by negligent unattending other divers and get knocked on the head by their fins etc... so the first thing you do once they're gone is to check your gear and the gear of your buddy, it takes 1 second to reach for your octo, your UW camera, your lamp, etc. to feel/check if it is still in place and everything is still OK, etc.... these are things which happen almost 1 dive out 5 or even more frequently so we not even do consider these things as "an incident", we're kind of used to it... so the risk of having a dangling octo which on top of that is free flowing unnoticed is virtually zero (unless you're a most unexperienced and sloppy diver yourself).

 

[Luc Dupas]

On recreational/deep/non-cave dives the long hose can still be useful because:
- keeps all the regs where you can see / feel / hear a free flow.
- involves no octo holders which the reg can work loose from during a dive.
- involves no octo holders which will not release the reg when it is needed.
- can deliver a working reg to an OOA diver every time
- optimizes for the case where an OOA diver strips the reg out of your mouth
- the 7' hose is useful for swimming side-by-side upslope instead of doing a direct ascent

- It especially prevents your buddy from having two possible choices for "self service" for reaching for air himself... it only leaves him with 1 source, your primary...
- If you have an octo holder which will not release the reg when needed means that you never, or at least not frequently, practice and do simulate an OOA in order to keep such things "in your fingers"... because otherwise such a "defect" would immediately show up...
- In case of a LH/necklaced config one unnecessarily interrupts the air supply of the person who has to help and if for whatever reason the necklaced reg doesn't deliver air two persons might be in deep **** instead of only one at the same time... while in a severe OOA your buddy is still recovering from his OOA and you yourself do have an OOA... In any case, both with a necklaced secondary as well as with an octo, one always have to ensure the damn thing is working and one has to check its proper functioning upon entering the water anyhow...
- a 120cm hose, mounted on the left, with a regular reg is just perfect for swimming side-by-side upslope... there is enough clearance between the divers in order not to kick each other all the time while at the same time both buddies are always within hand reach in case of problems! With a 7ft LH you're kind of walking your dog and if for whatever reason your buddy gets the reg out of his mouth he is to far away for being able to immediately be grabbed... I've spent hours and hours and hours UW with my buddies on my 120cm hose and octo swimming next to me, in various conditions, because it's something I do practice/exercise quite frequently towards the end of the dive and typically we spend 10-15min or even longer just continuing our dive that way and the 120cm is really an ideal compromise between "far enough" and "not to far away"... The only situation where the 120cm hose is too short is if we would be cave diving and have to work our way through a really narrow tunnel where one would have to swim one after the other, but that's something I already did mention earlier on as a real good reason for having a LH!

 

[JeffG]

Really ??? In our low viz waters it -unfortunately- does happen quite frequently that you're "overrun" by negligent unattending other divers and get knocked on the head by their fins etc... so the first thing you do once they're gone is to check your gear and the gear of your buddy, it takes 1 second to reach for your octo, your UW camera, your lamp, etc. to feel/check if it is still in place and everything is still OK, etc.... these are things which happen almost 1 dive out 5 or even more frequently so we not even do consider these things as "an incident", we're kind of used to it... so the risk of having a dangling octo which on top of that is free flowing unnoticed is virtually zero (unless you're a most unexperienced and sloppy diver yourself).

Never dove a long hose, have you?

 

[Luc Dupas]

Never dove a long hose, have you?

Oh no Jeff... you bet I did!!! See my postings of earlier today (around 5PM)...
And I have a number of DIR buddies and we do practice OOAs quite regularly... so I'm quite familiar with the use of the LH you know and I know the advantages of it, but I also do know the limitations and these are the reason who I personally do not want to dive anymore with a LH and a necklaced...

 

[lamont]

- It especially prevents your buddy from having two possible choices for "self service" for reaching for air himself... it only leaves him with 1 source, your primary...

which you are positive works because you were just using it.

- In case of a LH/necklaced config one unnecessarily interrupts the air supply of the person who has to help and if for whatever reason the necklaced reg doesn't deliver air two persons might be in deep **** instead of only one at the same time... while in a severe OOA your buddy is still recovering from his OOA and you yourself do have an OOA... In any case, both with a necklaced secondary as well as with an octo, one always have to ensure the damn thing is working and one has to check its proper functioning upon entering the water anyhow...

yeah, you do need to check that its properly functioning in both cases. in the case of the necklace its unlikely that anything bad happens to it during the dive. and if you hand off the long hose, it will definitely work. if you go to the necklace and find it doesn't work, you've got a much better shot at buddy breathing. if you hand off the octo and it doesn't work you're likely to have your buddy completely panic and now you're really both dead...

- a 120cm hose, mounted on the left, with a regular reg is just perfect for swimming side-by-side upslope... there is enough clearance between the divers in order not to kick each other all the time while at the same time both buddies are always within hand reach in case of problems! With a 7ft LH you're kind of walking your dog and if for whatever reason your buddy gets the reg out of his mouth he is to far away for being able to immediately be grabbed... I've spent hours and hours and hours UW with my buddies on my 120cm hose and octo swimming next to me, in various conditions, because it's something I do practice/exercise quite frequently towards the end of the dive and typically we spend 10-15min or even longer just continuing our dive that way and the 120cm is really an ideal compromise between "far enough" and "not to far away"... The only situation where the 120cm hose is too short is if we would be cave diving and have to work our way through a really narrow tunnel where one would have to swim one after the other, but that's something I already did mention earlier on as a real good reason for having a LH!

I've tried swimming around after an OOA drill on a 40" hose on a stage reg and its annoying, and too close for maneuverability, i'll take the 7' hose... typically you take up slack on the 7' hose as well -- the 7' hose lets you separate, it does not require that you separate...

 

[Diver0001]

Really ??? In our low viz waters it -unfortunately- does happen quite frequently that you're "overrun" by negligent unattending other divers

Well.... That does occasionally happen but I don't see what, if anything, the use of a long-hose does to change how you would deal with that. I've never been overrun by someone and thought "boy am *I* glad I have/don't-have a long hose".

(and it doesn't happen as much if you don't go diving with 50 of your closest friends.... You Belgian guys seem to do everything in big groups.. )

R..

 

[JeffG]

Well.... That does occasionally happen but I don't see what, if anything, the use of a long-hose does to change how you would deal with that. I've never been overrun by someone and thought "boy am *I* glad I have/don't-have a long hose".

He probably thought up his "solution" while on dry land.

 

[Luc Dupas]

Well.... That does occasionally happen but I don't see what, if anything, the use of a long-hose does to change how you would deal with that. I've never been overrun by someone and thought "boy am *I* glad I have/don't-have a long hose".

Indeed, it doesn't!!! Glad you do understand my reasoning...
Indeed, I was referring to the fact that this single example of Lamont, of a careless diver who didn't check his reg after being "hit", is no argument pro (nor con) the LH...

(and it doesn't happen as much if you don't go diving with 50 of your closest friends.... You Belgian guys seem to do everything in big groups..)

Actually... in most cases it did happen in the Oosterschelde... being "overrun" by countrymen of yours... grin... since in a number of cases I did remember their outfit and when coming back at the car I noticed these folks standing next to their car talking with a weird accent and funny coloured license plates on their cars... :14:

 

[Luc Dupas]

which you are positive works because you were just using it.

YEP, you're 100% right!!! And indeed, being an helper it is absolutely important that you yourself are 100% ready and prepared for help... which is not the case if you deliberately interrupt your own air supply...

yeah, you do need to check that its properly functioning in both cases. in the case of the necklace its unlikely that anything bad happens to it during the dive.

As likely, or unlikely, as something bad would happen with an octo properly routed and properly clipped to your BCD...

if you go to the necklace and find it doesn't work, you've got a much better shot at buddy breathing.

How often did you really experience a buddy or a nearby diver unexpectedly started to panic and you had to hand over an alternate air supply? And how often did you manage/try to calm him down within the first one or two minutes??? Over the last almost 20 years I've experienced this a number of times... had to rescue e.g. folks from 40m below who did panic and threw away their reg which started to free flow, handed over my alternate and looking at how they were "attached" to this alternate and sucking air like hell all the way to the surface they would never ever hand over this reg again to me for buddy breathing in case it were really needed... never!!! 40m below, dark as hell, you donate your primary and for whatever reason your necklaced doesn't work... your buddy still is out of control, no way to get your reg back for buddy breathing, he cannot help you, you're OOA... good luck buddy!

if you hand off the octo and it doesn't work you're likely to have your buddy completely panic and now you're really both dead...

Maybe... but I already have tried this out hundreds of times during openwater dives and maybe I'm extremely lucky, but up to now my octo always did work perfectly.

I've tried swimming around after an OOA drill on a 40" hose on a stage reg and its annoying, and too close for maneuverability, i'll take the 7' hose... typically you take up slack on the 7' hose as well -- the 7' hose lets you separate, it does not require that you separate...

Well... this is your experience... my experience with a few hundred buddies breathing from my yellow hose+octo and swimming on my left side-by-side is different...