Recommended Courses for Introductory Tech

[nimoh]

I also apologize for contributing to the going off topic.

I made some jokes about the DSMB class only because I find the increasing granularity of scuba classes rather humorous. This was not intended to convey that I though learning how to shoot a DSMB was a joke. I believe that shooting a DSMB while neutral and horizontal is a skill that all divers should be able to do, fairly effortlessly. For many, a mentor can teach this for free, for many others, a good mentor is not available and they need to seek out an instructor and pay for this service. I don't believe it is a skill that should be self-taught...especially at any significant depth since there is a high risk of getting entangled and hauled up to the surface on a buoyant ascent.

While I think shooting a DSMB instruction should happen in OW, or at least AOW, the fact that it often doesn't probably necessitates the class. It does seem a shame for a class to consist of a dive or two that have the single goal of shooting a DSMB, so hopefully the instructor uses the rest of the dive for something useful.

 

[Edward3c]

...

I should also mention that she only weighs 90 pounds, so it's not hard for her to get pulled to the surface in a big hurry if she has something that is positively buoyant attached to her.

...

Mike,

I'm sure your instructor made it very clear, when deploying an DSMB you don't have anything attached to you so if it jams or snags you can just let it go. Its good practise for each diver to have a DSMB so if one fails there is a second. Some divers carry two anyway.

In addition this skill isn't a one off it needs to be practised on a regular basis to remain proficient.

All the best.

 

[DevonDiver]

Because the idea of a separate class for deploying a DSMB is ludicrous.

Orly?





and then, with training,...



I see zero relevance in mocking separate versus integration of DSMB skills at recreational-training levels. That's just a matter of syllabus design. Some scuba training systems are comprehensive, others are modular. PADI have always been modular - core training, with supplemental classes for extra stuff people may need depending on their circumstances.

What matters is that if divers need to use DSMB, then they do have training. Accident statistics firmly support that need.

Ever see a noobie asking on SB about whether to clip off the DSMB to their BCD during deployment? I have...

Ever seen a diver get tangled in the line, when popping a bag? I have... several times

Ever seen a diver jam their reel when shooting a bag and get pulled up? I have...

I see nothing ludicrous in DSMB training. I see no difference between getting DSMB training versus other training in other potentially hazardous equipment that may not be a standardized feature in training courses; i.e. drysuit, penetration reel, DPV etc... All stuff that can hurt you if appropriate technique isn't used.

Didn't we all get a very stark reminder of the benefits of formal training with regards to an attempt to self-teach drysuit this year?

Yes... you could teach yourself anything. Self-taught cave diving anyone? Why not? Because of the risk inherent with learning - there is a danger if the wrong techniques are used, or proper techniques are used improperly... Decent training mitigates that risk.

As I said, some instructors include DSMB use as an 'extra' in their courses. That's laudable... but it depends on time available and student progress. If it isn't a 'performance requirement' for a given course, then you can't reasonably extend the course, or postpone certification, if the student hasn't had opportunity to master the skill.

It also depends on the instructor concerned... some want payment for what they teach and use formal course structures to determine that payment. Scoff all you want at that... I bet you all claim your overtime etc in your regular jobs... you want payment for the work you do... you want money to put food on your family table.. It's hardly 'unethical'...

Of all the agencies, how many include DSMB use as a performance standard in their entry-level training? Of those that do, how do courses compare in duration and cost?

 

[Michael Guerrero]

Orly?

Lol, at least he looked cool in his jets while doing somersaults.

Mike,

All the negative responses are because experienced divers are often jaded and disenchanted with the scuba industry (many with PADI in particular) because they feel the focus is on churning out unqualified and unsafe divers, selling them lots of specialty classes that many divers feel are unnecessary, and that there's not enough focus on building "mastery". This is really a failing of individual instructors. But then again, trying to make some people "masters" of skills would take months and months, and you can't run a business like that.

And so, rather than pay for a class to practice deploying an SMB (as an example), a dive or two with a mentor or experienced diver, plus a little time on the surface before hand, would give you everything you need to practice on your own.

It's entirely possible that your instructor is scrupulous, as you've described her, and is really trying to meet your stated goals/request. I've had the benefit of making friends with experienced divers and instructors and diving with them on fun dives. With the assistance of research, practice, and mentoring I have been able to pick up skills that others might have charged me a class for.

For example, I did my first drysuit dives with a friend who dives a drysuit. He made some suggestions, I described problems after the dives, and we tightened things down to where I had it nailed. To learn how to dive at night, I dove at night with a friend. To learn how to navigate underwater, I took AOW where we used a compass, then I practiced on my own every dive. To learn to dive "deep" (up to 130'), I dove with a friend who was an experienced diver.

I didn't pay for any of this. I just dove with friends who knew what they were doing. I would think you could find plenty of people in HI that would be willing to take you and your daughter under their wing and help you guys along in your experience and skill development.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

P.S.

And because this thread was originally about intro to tech, I did the same thing with tech diving. I researched and bought the equipment needed, while discussing things with friends. I put my gear together and started diving with it and practicing those things I had been told about and researched (e.g., valve and S drills). Did this with friends and by myself, and just kept diving.

 

[PfcAJ]

Divers in video 1+2 were still on the "learn how to dive" phase of diver education. They should probably learn that before attempting to shoot a bag.

Imo, SMB deployment as a special little class is nothing but a method for an instructor to lighten someones pocket.

 

[DevonDiver]

Imo, SMB deployment as a special little class is nothing but a method for an instructor to lighten someones pocket.

Honest question: where else in the curriculum should it feature? Assuming no "special little class"... then it'd have to be added to another class.

I've always felt that Deep Diver should include mandatory DSMB (not surface safety sausage) tuition. There's plenty of scope in that course to add meaningful skills (which it currently lacks).

AOW would be an obvious option for the addition of DSMB - but for PADI, that course is just a combo of 'adventure dives'. The two mandatory (deep and nav) and three electives. They'd have to either (1) add DSMB to the deep adventure dive (nice!...and fits with further DSMB refinement on the Deep specialty) or make a 'DSMB Adventure Dive' that was mandatory (reducing the electives to two only).

PADI created the DSMB course to fulfill a regional requirement only - as far as I know it was only promulgated within PADI International (at the time, that was basically just for the UK). It wasn't seen as a global requirement (a skill 100% of divers need). That view is obviously changing, as PADI now include DSMB/Sausage on OW. I still don't like the 'sausage' option; as I think it'd be jumped upon as the easiest option by any instructor not motivated to give the most comprehensive training.

There are undoubtably divers out there who feel that Cave is just a "special little class for an instructor to lighten someones pocket"... Opinions do vary...

 

[Jeff Scott]

AOW would be an obvious option for the addition of DSMB - but for PADI, that course is just a combo of 'adventure dives'. The two mandatory (deep and nav) and three electives. They'd have to either (1) add DSMB to the deep adventure dive (nice!...and fits with further DSMB refinement on the Deep specialty) or make a 'DSMB Adventure Dive' that was mandatory (reducing the electives to two only).

I was taught it during AOW and required to perform it in Rescue Diver and Deep Diver several times. Considering that a DSMB comes in the AOW crewpack it should be taught then. I was required to have a DSMB and finger spool for AOW.

 

[DevonDiver]

I was taught it during AOW and required to perform it in Rescue Diver and Deep Diver several times. Considering that a DSMB comes in the AOW crewpack it should be taught then. I was required to have a DSMB and finger spool for AOW.

Yes, but it wasn't an agency performance standard for either your AOW or Rescue. Likewise, there is no agency requirement to have a DSMB and finger spool for AOW. Your instructor made the decision to add it unilaterally as a supplement.

There's nothing wrong in that whatsoever...it's a good thing....

However, the agency has greater parameters to consider, beyond those effecting the decisions of a single instructor. The agency has to consider global requirements. In doing so, it has a limit on what it can fit within each course schedule and the given course time-frame. It has to prioritize key skills that are globally relevant to all.

DSMB usage was never historically prioritized as a key global skill (that is hopefully changing). So, it was left to individual instructors to supplement the skill as they deemed fit. Some found capacity, or generosity, to include it within existing courses as a 'freebie'. Some viewed it as a locally critical skill. Others did not.

When, and only when, a specific region determined that DSMB use was a regionally critical skill, did a formal training course become a reality. This meant that DSMB training changed from being an optional charity (depending on the instructor) to being on-demand - something a student could specifically ask (and pay for) to be taught... with a standardized syllabus and identified performance outcomes.

This brought about the provision of more consistent DSMB training; because specific and measurable performance standards would now be attributed to 'mastery' of DSMB skills. Those standards do not exist when training is given as a non-standard, non-syllabus addendum to other courses. Without them, the training remains highly variable and subject only to the whims of the instructor concerned... if, of course, the training was made available at all.

So... a 'DSMB Diver' course was introduced as an effective means for providing standardized training on a localized basis, which a student could access on demand and according to perceived need.

 

[PfcAJ]

Honest question: where else in the curriculum should it feature? Assuming no "special little class"... then it'd have to be added to another class.

I've always felt that Deep Diver should include mandatory DSMB (not surface safety sausage) tuition. There's plenty of scope in that course to add meaningful skills (which it currently lacks).

AOW would be an obvious option for the addition of DSMB - but for PADI, that course is just a combo of 'adventure dives'. The two mandatory (deep and nav) and three electives. They'd have to either (1) add DSMB to the deep adventure dive (nice!...and fits with further DSMB refinement on the Deep specialty) or make a 'DSMB Adventure Dive' that was mandatory (reducing the electives to two only).

PADI created the DSMB course to fulfill a regional requirement only - as far as I know it was only promulgated within PADI International (at the time, that was basically just for the UK). It wasn't seen as a global requirement (a skill 100% of divers need). That view is obviously changing, as PADI now include DSMB/Sausage on OW. I still don't like the 'sausage' option; as I think it'd be jumped upon as the easiest option by any instructor not motivated to give the most comprehensive training.

There are undoubtably divers out there who feel that Cave is just a "special little class for an instructor to lighten someones pocket"... Opinions do vary...

I think a basic OW class GENERALLY (inb4 all the super-instructors chime in) doesn't prepare a person to dive. Sure, they can go down, swim around, and swim back up without drowning, but it ain't pretty.

If I were king, SMB deployment would be part of basic OW. Its a basic thing that everyone needs to know how to do in an efficient, timely, and safe manner. In my mind, 100% of divers do need it.

 

[DevonDiver]

If I were king, SMB deployment would be part of basic OW. Its a basic thing that everyone needs to know how to do in an efficient, timely, and safe manner. In my mind, 100% of divers do need it.

I agree. So do PADI now...

> PADI Open Water Instructor Guide 2014, Open Water Dives: Dive Flexible Skills

• Inflatable Signal Tube Use — Deploy an inflatable signal tube at the surface, or deploy a delayed surface marker buoy (DSMB) from underwater.

> PADI 'Guide to Teaching', 2014

Inflatable Signal Tube/DSMB* Deployment — Make sure student divers know how to inflate the signal tube they will use. In the water, have each diver inflate the tube using the appropriate method while maintaining control of it. It’s usually most convenient to conduct this skill at the end of the dive after surfacing. Encourage each diver to have an inflatable signal tube, but require at least one per buddy team.

In areas where the use of DSMBs (delayed surface marker buoys) is a standard practice, have student divers launch a DSMB from a maximum depth of 12 metres/40 feet – shallower is preferred – from a stationary position, such as on a nonsensitive bottom. Make sure student divers are familiar with the DSMB they’ll use and review the steps before the dive. Have student divers use the appropriate method for inflating their DSMBs, such as using an alternate air source, exhaled bubbles, or a separate dedicated inflator. Caution divers to hold the reel and keep tension on the line to reduce the potential for entanglement.

It’s usually most convenient to conduct this skill at the end of the dive, so that divers can surface following the DSMB line. It’s recommended that you have students practice DSMB use in confined water before demonstrating deployment in open water. This skill is required for PADI Scuba Diver certification.

...."such as on a nonsensitive bottom."... but there's still work to do... (sigh) :|