Question Rec cold water diver: Single, Double or Sidemount? (focus on safety)

[formernuke]

Of course, you are correct, more tanks are the solution to any problem. I think I need to get my tank breeding program under control, though.

I just had 4 more appear, one AL40, and 3 steel 3L. I need to get some condoms for that 120 as I think it's his fault.

 

[Lorenzoid]

So, choose diving and equipment based on what is common? I think that's a terrible principle.

There are many reasons why someone does, or doesn't do something. For example, maybe people don't carry pony bottles because they can't afford them, or because they're embarrassed, lazy, not aware of them, or their dive-buddy is super-reliable, or naïve, or safety-third, or practiced CESA, or because they have other redundant air, or perhaps dozens of other personal reasons. There are so many reasons why a diver doesn't carry a pony bottle, and the majority of those reasons are NOT good reasons to discourage another diver potentially interested in carrying one for their personal safety.

People should do what is best for themselves and their situation. And one-size-fits-all, is often NOT best for the individual. Sure, maybe a pony is or isn't the best option for the OP, but appealing to popularity as the basis for decision making just seem extremely unwise.

I disagree for the most part. I do agree a diver needs to consider their own individual needs and circumstances in deciding on a gear configuration. However, I also believe that in reaching the decision, a diver should give a good bit of weight to the conclusions that have been drawn by other divers who have already gone through this same thought process about how to dive the same local cold-water sites in the same way (recreational/OW). Consider what your potential buddy might be using. If you're the only one using a pony in a group of backmount doubles divers (or vice versa), maybe having to go over emergency procedures would be an annoyance for your buddies. Or in case of gear not working properly, you may be able to more readily borrow something and already be familiar with it. There could even be local rules imposed by some sites. (It is Europe after all.) There may be local dive clubs. The first thing I would do if I were the OP would be to contact some local divers who are doing the kind of diving the OP intends to do and ask them what they think. The OP cannot be the only person diving those sites to have gone through this thought process. I was following the thread closely for a while, and I may have missed it if the OP has said he has already done that kind of investigation into local practices.

I do not suggest a "one-size-fits-all" approach, but I do suggest taking local practices into consideration--perhaps giving it quite a bit of weight in the decision. It is possible that those of us advocating a particular gear configuration are showing our own local biases; perhaps we have come to dive that configuration in part because it's not uncommon where we dive.

 

[Cthippo]

Common/Uncommon may hint something problematic about the uncommon, but if someone wants to argue that pony-bottles are dangerous, go for it. I'm fairly sure the #1 and #2 reasons most people don't carry redundant-air is (a) they don't want to spend the money on one, or (b) some sort of laziness or disliking the bulk of carrying one.

If I'm to apply this "is it common" principle, I should give up on having ANY redundant gas at all. I think locally, I've only seen a pony bottle once, and never sidemount or any other redundant air. "I can't have any emergency gas, because .... well, I have to be like everyone else!" So, you're suggesting I'm the moron who carries redundant gas, because nobody else does?

I think the reason most people don't carry a redundant gas supply is that they were taught that their buddy's gas was "good enough". Most OW instructors don't carry ponies, so most people aren't even exposed to the concept until they start hanging out with other, more advanced, divers. Before I joined this board (which was also before my OW) I wasn't aware of ponies and the value of redundant air. I had heard the Spare Air things were a joke, but that was it. It wasn't until i spent time on here and was exposed to the tech folks that i even understood a redundant pony was not only an option, but a good option for the sort of diving I ended up doing.

So, yeah, going to disagree. I think the reason most people don't carry redundant gas has more to do with never having been exposed to the concept or because they believe that buddy diving provides enough redundancy.

 

[R.Chisholm]

You are a self described recreational diver with no interest in technical diving, and you want to be as safe as possible diving recreationally in cold water. The clear answer IMO is single tank with a good sealed regulator, good cold water technique, and a reliable buddy. You might consider a pony bottle, but it should not be necessary. It might make you feel safer, but it's unlikely it actually is safer, at least statistically. I'm not saying its a bad idea, but among the potential dangers in recreational diving, running out of available air should never be one of them. This is what gas management, buddies, and immediate access to the surface are for. Both are basic fundamental tenants of recreational diving.

Safety is based on diver judgement and behavior, and especially partnering with other safety-minded divers. Equipment is really not the issue here, other than making sure your gear is in good condition and reliable. Simplicity in set up and your familiarity and ability to manage the gear are probably the most important factors. One thing I would suggest is that you have some redundancy or contingency in buoyancy; likely a drysuit, which you may have mentioned and it flew by me, because cold water divers will eventually be in drysuits or they will quit diving in cold water. Nobody likes freezing. But if you're diving wet and you are using a lot of weight, make sure it's possible to ditch enough to swim to the surface and maintain control on the surface in the event your BC fails.

There is no reason to go for double tanks, either backmount or sidemount, unless you are interested in technical diving, and that comes along with technical training, part of which will be managing the new, more complicated gear arrangement.

I admit I haven't read this whole thread, but I see that some people are just encouraging you to dive like they do. Not always the best advice.

Having spent a fair amount of time diving in the Op's location (lakes in Germany & Switzerland) let me offer the following observation.

For open circuit divers two first stage regulators with and independent secondary is pretty much standard.

i'd guess that ca 60% of all OC divers in this environment dive with a single 12l or 15l steel tank and a Y or H valve and two regulators. 30% dive back mounted doubles with an isolation manifold. 8 % dive side mount. 2% dive independent back mounted doubles.

I don't believe I've ever seen a diver in this environment with a single tank, single valve and single regulator with octo. Stages if worn at all are almost universally clipped in the deco stage style - not across the chest or back mounted.

In my view having independent first stage regulators is a must - I've had one of mine free flow 3 times at the surface and once at depth. I've seen this happen twice with other divers as well.

Pretty much everyone who continues diving beyond OWD dives with a drysuit in this environment. At depths beyond 30m the water temperature is 6 degrees all year round.

Now I'm sure it is possible to dive in other configurations - but then the op did ask about safety. CMAS teaches tracing the hose configuration and shutting down the correct valve in case your buddy has a free flow. Personally I feel i am better off with a configuration where I can shut down valves on my own - which speaking for myself a find a lot easier in a back mounted twin set while wearing dry gloves a drysuit and a thick under suit.

 

[NothingClever]

One thing we learned in this thread is that ponies are not common in the OP’s region.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I believe he would do best to address this kind of diving the way others who dive there do. If recreational backmount doubles are not an uncommon solution, go for it.

@SlugMug - what I get out of the above is not a recommendation to be unthinking and simply mimic what everybody else is doing. It’s a recommendation to seek out vetted solutions from seasoned, skilled divers.

 

[happy-diver]

I would assume that in this situation (strong current) you may also use bolt snaps to secure your tanks at the top instead of only using bungees?

Mate it doesn't matter how many clips and how much bungee you incorporate into your rig (dude if you
can envision doing gymnastics with a couple of really big salamis, and a chickenloaf, hanging on string
around your neck) your tanks will be swinging and banging around considering the Sidemount rig was
designed for caves where there ain't much to make you bang and swing except other divers, and panic

and this loose swinging banging pony thing will only be required if you find yourself waiting to surface
stuck with the sudden appearance of a procession of dumb recreational boaters, also trying to kill you


Here is the correct clean and safe way to tie your own bottle rigs, have a look and have a good read

Nothing about the SlugMug way is the correct clean or safe way and I generally adore photographs

DIR-diver.com - Stagebottle rigging

Information about Doing It Right (DIR) diving, equipment and procedures.

dir-diver.com

and what people should be reading, better than any diving course anywhere, and some regulators

The Best Sidemount Regulators Set

Looking for sidemount regulators? This review features all the specifications for the best sidemount regulators sets on the market today!

scubatechphilippines.com

and stick your head up there in that there link SlugMug before it gets too full of unnecessary stuff

 

[halocline]

Now I'm sure it is possible to dive in other configurations - but then the op did ask about safety.

Safety in diving is determined by diver behavior, training, and judgement. Part of this is being trained and confident in a specific gear configuration. A single tank diver (which is what the OP is) simply adding a tank to his rig does not make him safer IMO. You may be correct that the environment he's talking about diving in is appropriate for carrying a redundant air source, but the ability to manage any additional gear source must be learned. That's why I wouldn't advise a single tank diver to just carry double tanks because other people in the environment, presumably in this case out of fear of a cold water induced free flow, do so. If this environment is really hazardous enough to warrant the necessity of redundant gas, then to me that means it requires some sort of additional training.

 

[Lorenzoid]

That's why I wouldn't advise a single tank diver to just carry double tanks because other people in the environment, presumably in this case out of fear of a cold water induced free flow, do so. If this environment is really hazardous enough to warrant the necessity of redundant gas, then to me that means it requires some sort of additional training.

I totally agree. That's probably why around 60% (by @R.Chisholm's estimate) of the OC divers diving those cold European lakes are using a configuration that strikes most of us Americans as weird: the Y/H-valve. Essentially no additional training is necessary; if the first stage you're breathing freezes up, switch to the alternate from the backup first stage, and calmly call the dive and begin the ascent, just as we were all taught in our basic OW course. These are recreational divers, not tech wanna-be's eager to wear more equipment, and this is likely where they do their everyday kind of diving. Other equipment solutions may have other advantages, as pointed out by many in this thread, but the one that seems most popular in that region has the advantage of enabling the diver to rely on existing training. I'm not advocating any particular configuration; just adding my thoughts on why the weird (to me) Y/H-valve is apparently so common there.

i'd guess that ca 60% of all OC divers in this environment dive with a single 12l or 15l steel tank and a Y or H valve and two regulators. 30% dive back mounted doubles with an isolation manifold. 8 % dive side mount. 2% dive independent back mounted doubles.

 

[grf88]

I have been using H-valves for quite a few years for Canada's cold waters and find them a good choice. I have also used a pony which also takes very little practice to become proficient with. These days I am leaning toward side-mount with 50 cu.ft. cylinders but that is because at 75 my diminished strength and arthritic knees are influencing my choice.

 

[SlugLife]

Safety in diving is determined by diver behavior, training, and judgement. Part of this is being trained and confident in a specific gear configuration. A single tank diver (which is what the OP is) simply adding a tank to his rig does not make him safer IMO. You may be correct that the environment he's talking about diving in is appropriate for carrying a redundant air source, but the ability to manage any additional gear source must be learned. That's why I wouldn't advise a single tank diver to just carry double tanks because other people in the environment, presumably in this case out of fear of a cold water induced free flow, do so. If this environment is really hazardous enough to warrant the necessity of redundant gas, then to me that means it requires some sort of additional training.

I'm reminded of one incident with Adventures With a Purpose, where Jared (the lead) sent Doug (a relatively new diver) down to 100ft for the first time, with a bunch of new equipment including a FFM and a pony-bottle. Doug ran out of air, and ended up bolting to the surface. The pony bottle did him little good, because in his unfamiliarity, lack of training, and practice Doug wasn't ready to remove the FFM and switch to the pony.

Whatever config OP decides to pursue, he should obviously practice with at minimum. Personally, I switch to my backup regulator (octo, pony, SM, etc) at least once every dive for practice, to verify it's working, and properly secured in the right place. Training is obviously useful, but I think one could gain a benefit even without specific training, afterall, most of us learned regulator switching in Open Water.