Rebreather for tech diving, need suggestion's

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Personally I would skip the SCR part if I already knew it'll be just temporary. Quite some time, effort and money that I belive isn't well spend.

The Dolphin and Azi are both decent rebreathers with their advantages and disadvantages. You're obviously aware of the recreational depth limits.

Consider this when starting from scratch:
You'll spend about $3500 on a Dolphin, plus bailout tank with valve and first stage, another couple of $100s.
Or the Azi at around $4500 including bailout.
Training will set you back about another $350 - $450, and you want to get at least a O2 monitor (around $500) or better yet an O2 integrated deco computer (that you'll be able to use later - VR3 or Explorer $1200+).

You dive it for a year, then sell it off at a loss, and buy a CCR.
Now you're talking about $1000+ for training, the need to relearn skills again and for the third time you're back at being a novice. You will still need to clock dives before taking it into a wreck or cave, and all agencies I'm aware of require 100 hrs before trimix certification.

Instead consider this:
Rather than spend all the time and money on a SCR, spend some time researching the different features and capabilities of CCRs on the market. Use some of the money to do intros on the rigs, make sure you're around for the pre-dive set-up and checks. You want to see how involved they are to get ready for a dive, calibrate the sensors, etc. Get your money's worth.

In FL you'll find plenty of CCR instructors, for any CCR sold in the US, several of them cavers. Meet them, look and try their rigs, talk about their experiences. You're in the country's best location for that! Take advantage of it.

The travel and intros will cost you less than a SCR, and you'll come out knowing more about the different rigs. You'll get some hands-on time and can see what suits you and your needs best.

I never got certified on a Dolphin. I have more than enough hours on the old Atlantis, but first didn't have the money (college) and then thought they missed the point.

Looking back now, I'm glad I couln't afford it, because my first two experiences with rebreathers (SCR and CCR) had the "I want that!" effect, and both would have been disappointing.

Stefan

Well, im cosedering all option's at this time, and one is money,lol, i thought starting off on a SCR like the dolphin or azi, selling some of my tech gear to help off set the cost, and then when ready, may even be 2-3 years before going to CCR, and if it's before, i looked at the conversion kit's for the Dolphin's, which wouldn't be much more then it look's to me like investing another $500.

Im trying to stay around $3k getting into SCR, with that being a budget, then adding the Vr-3 or Hs explorer down the road, and so on, but i thought that would be a good starting point for now and just diving the unit for what it's made for, withen rec limit's and replacing my OC gear for now, well just sell some of my doubles and steel tanks, i have close to $3k alone just in them, that would start me in the rebreather direction,

 

[scubahubby]

Im trying to stay around $3k getting into SCR, with that being a budget, then adding the Vr-3 or Hs explorer down the road, and so on, but i thought that would be a good starting point for now and just diving the unit for what it's made for, withen rec limit's and replacing my OC gear for now, well just sell some of my doubles and steel tanks, i have close to $3k alone just in them, that would start me in the rebreather direction,

I have to 2nd everything Stephan said. You will pay substantially more over time if you do the SCR thing. And you will have to start all over one more time (ick!) building your skills. Personally I would just wait another year or two and stick with OC diving, if thats what it takes to save up the money for the CCR you decide on.

If you have 2 pony tanks, a backplate, and wings, you can save $780 and get the Sport KISS for $4,000 and have a full CCR setup. Ok $5,000 counting training. I know its quite a bit more than your $3K target. But it will take you much further along the path than an SCR. You can thank NAFTA that you wont have to worry about import taxes or VAT which significantly increases the real cost of a KISS for our European/Asian/Austraian friends.

- Ozzy

 

[caveseeker7]

Unless you find a good used Dräger (more likely than an Azi) you won't be able to do it for $3K including training.

If you have 2 pony tanks, a backplate, and wings, you can save $780 and get the Sport KISS for $4,000 and have a full CCR setup. Ok $5,000 counting training. I know its quite a bit more than your $3K target.

That's certainly the least expensive set-up you can get. If Jetsam follows through with their DEMA announcement of a larger optional scrubber container (6.5 instead of 5 lbs) the time and maybe even the depth restriction will be off.

Either way I would take either KISS over either SCR.
OC-integrated DSV, pO2 readout, CCR ...

Unlike the SCRs mentioned you should be good to go for quite a while. And with considerable gas savings to boot.
That should make up for the additional $500 or so each for traininng and equipment.

And if you already have the fitting 2 or 3 liter tanks you'll loose a bit less selling them used.

Still, check into the other options. Even if you'll have to wait a bit longer (Meg and Prism will take several month from ordering anyway), you'll be happier in the end if that's what turns out to be what you really want.

 

[Peter.o]

Well, and three cables with connectors, three displays and three batteries.
The pO2 readouts are fully independent and redundant, well worth mentioning.

And replace the absorbant, I asume, by the time the sensors get flooded the scrubber is usually history.

Anyway, that should be the case on any good rebreather design. If batteries or electronics get damaged due to a loop flood you bought a lousy design.
With the notable exception of the MK-5p and its hydrophobic scrubber cannister (that can also be used in the Meg if you can find/afford it).

Electronics should be fully sealed, all cables to and from them water blocking, batteries outside the loop.

This is not true.
The KISS RB has hoses between the loop and the handsets to seal the cables, exactly as Inspiration. So the battery and electronics are in the loop.

Maybe the Prism is a good RB, but the testing doesn’t show the unit as a “Tech diving”
rebreather. http://www.steammachines.com/pdfs/TM01-03.pdf

Page 6
"In water temperatures of 40F or higher, the prism can be safely dived to a maximum depht of 190 fsw. The canister duration is 240 min when 90% of the total duration is at 60 fsw or shallower."

Best Regards
Peter
Sweden

 

[caveseeker7]

This is not true.
The KISS RB has hoses between the loop and the handsets to seal the cables, exactly as Inspiration. So the battery and electronics are in the loop.

Oh really, Peter?
Ever heard of water block cables?
They won't allow water into the loop or gauge even when cut.

Jetsam places the batteries in the gauges, which are outside the loop.
Steam Machines places the battery on in a separate 1 atm compartment outside the loop.
Innerspace seals the batteries into a containers with magnetic reed switches which is then placed inside the loop.
The MK series, MK-5p and Ouroboros all have the batteries in separate compartments outside the loop.
So do Juergensen's Hammerhead electronics.

The only manufacturer I'm aware of who places the batteries in an unsealed compartment inside the loop at ambient pressure is Ambient Pressure. That, no matter how you look at it, is a bad design feature.

To make it worse, they told me at DEMA they didn't bother to change it for the Evolution. Neither the US Navy's report of caution nor the incident in the Caymans was enough for them to either take the batteries out of the loop or at least seal them at 1 ata.

To say the KISS is equal to that nonsense is not correct.
Very different issues.

Maybe the Prism is a good RB, but the testing doesn’t show the unit as a “Tech diving” rebreather. http://www.steammachines.com/pdfs/TM01-03.pdf

Page 6
"In water temperatures of 40F or higher, the prism can be safely dived to a maximum depht of 190 fsw. The canister duration is 240 min when 90% of the total duration is at 60 fsw or shallower."

For starters, you're looking at a US NAvy test, not a tech diving test. Ergo the test shows it can perform as a military rebreather, not as a tech rebreather. The Navy tested the Prism to 190 fsw, which is their standard protocol. Remember, the Prism was tested to their protocol for Navy use, not Steam Machines protocol for the company's use.

Before Steam Machines started Navy testing they had DCIEM testing done to 300 fsw.

Then, if you follow closely, the test in the mentioned report was done with the 5.4 lbs scrubber that the Prism originally had. As the Navy requested 300 minutes duration for that very test, Steam Machines increased scrubber capacity to 6 lbs. and achieved the 5 hrs duration.

That's the highest rating I'm aware of for that test and amount of sorb. The MK15.5MOD1 (15.5/SM1600) reached it, but with with 8 lbs of absorbant, and both the MK-5p and Inspiration fell short. The latter averaged within 10 min. of its CE rating in the same test.

Let me guess? The Inspiration is not a tech rebreather either?
The Cis-Lunar? And the MK series was never ment to be?

The KISS has been to 100 msw in stock form, and deeper modified.
The MK-5p has plenty of dives in the 450 - 500 fsw range,
the Meg has been past 500 fsw,
the Inspiration successfully past 580 feet.
The MK15.5 holds the current record at 886 fsw.
(Not too shabby for a 30 year old design upgraded only to digital electronics -
whatever you're diving, let's see how it compares in 2030 ...)

The Prism is regularly dived past 400 fsw, and I don't see a reason why it couldn't go deeper.
Certainly not because of an inefficient scrubber.
Maybe Prism divers just have a different mindset than chasing records.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Oh really, Peter?
Ever heard of water block cables?
They won't allow water into the loop or gauge even when cut.

Jetsam places the batteries in the gauges, which are outside the loop.
Steam Machines places the battery on in a separate 1 atm compartment outside the loop.
Innerspace seals the batteries into a containers with magnetic reed switches which is then placed inside the loop.
The MK series, MK-5p and Ouroboros all have the batteries in separate compartments outside the loop.
So do Juergensen's Hammerhead electronics.

The only manufacturer I'm aware of who places the batteries in an unsealed compartment inside the loop at ambient pressure is Ambient Pressure. That, no matter how you look at it, is a bad design feature.

To make it worse, they told me at DEMA they didn't bother to change it for the Evolution. Neither the US Navy's report of caution nor the incident in the Caymans was enough for them to either take the batteries out of the loop or at least seal them at 1 ata.

To say the KISS is equal to that nonsense is not correct.
Very different issues.


For starters, you're looking at a US NAvy test, not a tech diving test. Ergo the test shows it can perform as a military rebreather, not as a tech rebreather. The Navy tested the Prism to 190 fsw, which is their standard protocol. Remember, the Prism was tested to their protocol for Navy use, not Steam Machines protocol for the company's use.

Before Steam Machines started Navy testing they had DCIEM testing done to 300 fsw.

Then, if you follow closely, the test in the mentioned report was done with the 5.4 lbs scrubber that the Prism originally had. As the Navy requested 300 minutes duration for that very test, Steam Machines increased scrubber capacity to 6 lbs. and achieved the 5 hrs duration.

That's the highest rating I'm aware of for that test and amount of sorb. The MK15.5MOD1 (15.5/SM1600) reached it, but with with 8 lbs of absorbant, and both the MK-5p and Inspiration fell short. The latter averaged within 10 min. of its CE rating in the same test.

Let me guess? The Inspiration is not a tech rebreather either?
The Cis-Lunar? And the MK series was never ment to be?

The KISS has been to 100 msw in stock form, and deeper modified.
The MK-5p has plenty of dives in the 450 - 500 fsw range,
the Meg has been past 500 fsw,
the Inspiration successfully past 580 feet.
The MK15.5 holds the current record at 886 fsw.
(Not too shabby for a 30 year old design upgraded only to digital electronics -
whatever you're diving, let's see how it compares in 2030 ...)

The Prism is regularly dived past 400 fsw, and I don't see a reason why it couldn't go deeper.
Certainly not because of an inefficient scrubber.
Maybe Prism divers just have a different mindset than chasing records.

Wow, what a thread this turned out to be!! Im following every reply, and learning more and more!!! Boy, do i have alot to learn with rb's ..............;(

 

[BigJetDriver]

Wow, what a thread this turned out to be!! Im following every reply, and learning more and more!!! Boy, do i have alot to learn with rb's ..............;(

FLTEK,

As I found out some years ago, the learning curve is steep, and there is a lot of "hidden stuff" you find out about in fora like this one.

The thing to remember is that the effort to research, choose, and train is well worth it. As Joe, Stefan, myself and others have found out, you will rarely find yourself going back to OC once you have "come to the Dark Side of the (diving) Force"!!! :11: ( At least, that's what the members of the Amish Diving Society think of it as!!! )

I am a fan of the Inspiration, and the Shadow Pack III, as well as an instructor on both. Stefan, as you might have guessed, is a Prism Patriot. Others are fans and advocates of other machines such as the Megalodon, and the KISS.

Each has its pro's and con's. All of the machines I have just mentioned will do ALL of the tech diving you are ever likely to want to do. It is up to you research and choose the one you feel right with! Have fun!

I know the others have offered, and I will add my offer. If I can help you in any way with questions you might have, feel free to PM me. If I don't have a ready answer, we can find someone who does!

Cheers!

Rob

 

[DrMike]

Stefan,

Do you know what are the depth ratings for the lumberg connectors SMI use on the Prism and SM1600?


I understand the standard for these connectors is only 90m - do you know if these are non-standard higher rated ones?

I see Kevin uses them on the HH - anyone know the skinny?

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

FLTEK,

As I found out some years ago, the learning curve is steep, and there is a lot of "hidden stuff" you find out about in fora like this one.

The thing to remember is that the effort to research, choose, and train is well worth it. As Joe, Stefan, myself and others have found out, you will rarely find yourself going back to OC once you have "come to the Dark Side of the (diving) Force"!!! :11: ( At least, that's what the members of the Amish Diving Society think of it as!!! )

I am a fan of the Inspiration, and the Shadow Pack III, as well as an instructor on both. Stefan, as you might have guessed, is a Prism Patriot. Others are fans and advocates of other machines such as the Megalodon, and the KISS.

Each has its pro's and con's. All of the machines I have just mentioned will do ALL of the tech diving you are ever likely to want to do. It is up to you research and choose the one you feel right with! Have fun!

I know the others have offered, and I will add my offer. If I can help you in any way with questions you might have, feel free to PM me. If I don't have a ready answer, we can find someone who does!

Cheers!

Rob

Thanks Rob, as you all been such a great help, after the few weeks of researching, i think im going to start off diving semi closed, i like the Azi alot, and although the Kiss is much more then that,and it's CCR, for now just getting into this i thought i would go that route, dive withen rec limit's, get used to a rebreather, read up over the next year or two, then at that point get into tech diving with a CCR, and at that point i will be ready to goto the Meg, Kiss, and other CCr's out there, cause i'll have more money in the bank saved for it!! Man, there not cheap, prices im getting for CCR start at 5k, and go up from there, so with limited funds right now, and really wanting to start the route of Rb's, i like the Azi alot, signed up for a intro class for it in the next few weeks, will dive both the Dolphin and Azumith, and test them out in the water, and once dived them will make a descion on which one to buy.

You guy's have all been a great help, thanks again, if your all ever in FL be sure to look me up!

 

[caveseeker7]

I am a fan of the Inspiration, and the Shadow Pack III, as well as an instructor on both. Stefan, as you might have guessed, is a Prism Patriot. Others are fans and advocates of other machines such as the Megalodon, and the KISS.

Prism Patriot ...

Shouldn't the rest be ...
Kiss Connoisseur
Megalo-maniac
Inspiration I..... .... nothing comes to mind.