Rebreather for tech diving, need suggestion's

[caveseeker7]

You're welcome.

Also have a look at Ekki Schepanski's website, he has a copy of Andrew Driver's Rebreather Purchase article, and plenty more good stuff. Including an excellent list of Palm software.

 

[padiscubapro]

Parts availability?
If the location you're at can receive FedEx or UPS than you'll get Prism parts just as soon as they can be delivered.
The same as for the Meg and KISS.

You make it sound like you can just waltz into your LDS for a replacement handset for an Inspiration ... I have yet to see any stores carrying APD spares worth mentioning. If they support CCRs they'll like have a couple of sensors on the shelf, but that's supplies, not parts.
Even Dräger parts aren't usually stocked by Aqualung dealers.

A handset.. comeon Stephan thats a MAJOR problem, That goest backto the manufacturer regardless what brand it is... I'm talking about realistic user reapairable failures.. manual iinflators, sensors, o-rings, scrims, maybe as far as a solenoid ect...

I would not expect any shop to carry a custom replacement harness, custom wings, replacement electronics or breathing bags.. These are high $$ parts.. I'm talking about reasonable replacements. Although I have seen shops lend out replacement electronics to divers.. A few years ago I had a shop do this for me so I didn;t have to screw with changing a bad sensor/connector.

If you dive in europe Inspiration parts can be easily had in most locations.. Many places the have Inspiration divers on staff have likely parts available.. I'm not implying every shop has them, but its a good possibility that a shop somewhere at your destination has parts... The more divers out there the better your chance of help is..
If your home who cares if it takes a few days to get parts but if you are on vacation you want them now, thats my point. Sensors are especially true since R22ds are very common.
In the US Fedex, DHL ect are only a day away, but in many other places overnight mail can be easily a week ore at best several days....

 

[padiscubapro]

Thanks caveseeker7 and padiscubapro, your input's answered alot of questions i had, and are very helpfull, i'll be printing them out and adding them to my rebreather folder so when i do decide to buy one, which will be withen the next 4-6 months for sure, i thought by then i would have researched CCR enough to make a choice one which one to buy.

Im not ready to do 100m yet, espicalley if i have to get used to diving a CCR first, as ive only been diving the past year and a half past rec limit's, but would like to go to a CCR as i progress into more deeper dives, and start to take my mixed gas classes.

Which is another topic, but what i thought would be to start on a CCR and dive it till i know it inside and out, get used to it, keeping myself well withen rec limits, use it for reef dives, and wreck dives, then as i progress with it, and feel comfortable and are no longer diving with the rebreather on my mind, and at some time progress into diving a CCR with the dive profiles im now doing on open circut.

Many of the advantages you had mentioned i have thought alot about, and there are many more it seems to me.

Thanks for the link's also, as im researching them all as well, some great link's, but im definatley looking foward to starting the road of using a CCR here shortley, and enjoying all the benfit's of diving a CCR , thanks again!!

PS, What kind of software are you using for CCR's to do you dive planning with?

Thanks!!

I use ANDI's version of GAP software, the non andi version is available at www.gap-software.com...


I have also used vplanner in the past..

 

[caveseeker7]

A handset.. come on Stefan thats a MAJOR problem,

Well, you said spares ...

Actually, I mentioned them because both early Prisms (impact damaging jeweled movement) and Inspirations (before shorter cables damage/cracks from carelessness) got easily damaged when mishandled.

And it's one of the very few Prism problems I'm aware of that can't be fixed in the field.

I have seen shops lend out replacement electronics to divers.. A few years ago I had a shop do this for me so I didn;t have to screw with changing a bad sensor/connector.

Actually, I have seen SMI do the same thing. Several customers upgraded to the current head from the original horseshoe shaped one. Some kept the orignals as spares, others traded them in. Those have been used a emergency back-ups.

If you dive in europe Inspiration parts can be easily had in most locations..

They better be, it's a the Euro CCR, CE mark and all.
But Florida, though hard to believe in some areas, is still part of the US. :11:

Finally, APD doesn't do the US anymore, SDS is. And I can think of a diver or two who are less than happy since that change came about, as well as several posts to that effect. IIRC those were all pre-SDS owners, but I rather take my chances with a smaller manufacturer that cares and is accessable. SMI and Jetsam are, ISC probably too.

 

[padiscubapro]

Finally, APD doesn't do the US anymore, SDS is. And I can think of a diver or two who are less than happy since that change came about, as well as several posts to that effect. IIRC those were all pre-SDS owners, but I rather take my chances with a smaller manufacturer that cares and is accessable. SMI and Jetsam are, ISC probably too.

It seems to be a crapshoot..
Some people have had pleasent dealings with SDS, while others have told of horror stories.. So far I have not any any problems with SDS and get my orders in a timely fasion (more costly than when I dealt with APD but some stuff is definately faster)

I urge if anyone has a problem dealing with SDS immediately contact APD.. I am sure Nicky will make sure it is resolved...

As to the cracked handset thing...

every one I have seen has been able to be fixed (albeit not permanently) by the diver.. If its just some liquid inside (this is what normall happens not a full flood) a rinse with fresh water and some cement for poly carb will do the trick (the electronics are encased in silicon), if this has been going on for a few days, the leaf switch probably needs changing ... not that big a deal for some but a big issue for those who dont know how to use a soldering iron.

With the proper predive checks and know where to look for certain sysmptoms can make this a fixable problem..

 

[caveseeker7]

As to the cracked handset thing...

I don't consider that much of an issue with either CCR.
ADP shortened the cables a bit, and on the Evo made housing out of metal, SMI switched to the square gauges which are sturdier.

Aside from which damage to either handset is likely caused by very careless handling. Not really what you want to do with any CCR. During the Prism training proper handling, especially of the secondary, is hammered in.

 

[Curt McNamee]

I just went through all the research like you. I spent alot of time looking at all the units out there and talking to people about the pro's and con's. I just purchased a KISS CCR from Kim and Gordon at Jetsam Technologies Ltd and have about 4 hrs on it now and it is great. Simple is better. The only electonics are the 3 O2 sensors. It is easy to use, manage and maintain. I here about all the problems that others are having with parts and electronics with the automatic units and it does not sound like much fun and it is very expensive. If I had a bad flood in my KISS, all I have to replace are the 3 O2 sensors and I carry spares for that problem. This unit is very easy to use. All you need to do is add O2 to your loop every 15-20 minutes most of the time. I am convinced that Simple is Better when it comes to this stuff. The KISS unit is a high quality unit for only $5,000. Great factory support and I have heard only good things about the unit and Kim and Gordon the owners. Check it out.

 

[caveseeker7]

Hi Curt,
sensible post you made there. I agree with some but not all of it. So here a few thoughts.

Simple is better.

I agree with you, for most part I believe simple is better.
Makes for easier use and maintainance, thus increasing passive safety (less that can go wrong) and fun to use the unit.
The KISSes are certainly the posterboys for simple.

But it doesn't have to be a manually controlled CCR to be simple. One major reason I was drawn to the Prism is that it is a simple to maintain and dive rig. A lot of thought went into the engineering to make it so. Safety and ease of use where the highest priorities, which I appreciate.

The only electonics are the 3 O2 sensors.

Well, and three cables with connectors, three displays and three batteries.
The pO2 readouts are fully independent and redundant, well worth mentioning.

I here about all the problems that others are having with parts and electronics with the automatic units and it does not sound like much fun and it is very expensive.

What problems are you referring to?
That's not a rethorical question, I'm quite curious.

If I had a bad flood in my KISS, all I have to replace are the 3 O2 sensors and I carry spares for that problem.

And replace the absorbant, I asume, by the time the sensors get flooded the scrubber is usually history.

Anyway, that should be the case on any good rebreather design. If batteries or electronics get damaged due to a loop flood you bought a lousy design.
With the notable exception of the MK-5p and its hydrophobic scrubber cannister (that can also be used in the Meg if you can find/afford it).

Electronics should be fully sealed, all cables to and from them water blocking, batteries outside the loop.

Of current production the KISS (what little electronics there are) has it, the Prism has it, the MK series has had it for the past 30 odd years. The Meg comes close with the battery sealed inside its own housing, but inside the loop.

What the Prism and Meg add is the ability to partially recover the loop form a flood by placing drains into the counterlungs, one on each bag and one in the exhalation bag respectively.

This unit is very easy to use. All you need to do is add O2 to your loop every 15-20 minutes most of the time.

With an eCCR you won't even need to do that, unless you either choose or need to fly it manually (the former is more common).

All you need to do is monitor, which on both the Prism and Meg comes easily with their DSV mounted LEDs: They are always in you field of vision without intruding!

The KISS unit is a high quality unit for only $5,000.

That is only the case if you have the missing bits lying around you house ... tanks, valves, fitting BCD and 3 sensors ... otherwise you're looking at a bit more.

Great factory support and I have heard only good things about the unit and Kim and Gordon the owners. Check it out.

While I can't speak to the support as I'm not a customer I certainly got the same feedback. I always admired the no-nonsense approach they took to their marketing. And, having met them on a couple of occasions, I can say it was a pleasure and is well worth it.

By all means, FLTEC, check out the KISS and meet the two if you get a chance.

Just take a good look at what else is out there, ask yourself (as well as the builder) why they did what, and you'll find a rig that'll meet your needs and wants.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Hi Curt,
sensible post you made there. I agree with some but not all of it. So here a few thoughts.

I agree with you, for most part I believe simple is better.
Makes for easier use and maintainance, thus increasing passive safety (less that can go wrong) and fun to use the unit.
The KISSes are certainly the posterboys for simple.

But it doesn't have to be a manually controlled CCR to be simple. One major reason I was drawn to the Prism is that it is a simple to maintain and dive rig. A lot of thought went into the engineering to make it so. Safety and ease of use where the highest priorities, which I appreciate.


Well, and three cables with connectors, three displays and three batteries.
The pO2 readouts are fully independent and redundant, well worth mentioning.


What problems are you referring to?
That's not a rethorical question, I'm quite curious.


And replace the absorbant, I asume, by the time the sensors get flooded the scrubber is usually history.

Anyway, that should be the case on any good rebreather design. If batteries or electronics get damaged due to a loop flood you bought a lousy design.
With the notable exception of the MK-5p and its hydrophobic scrubber cannister (that can also be used in the Meg if you can find/afford it).

Electronics should be fully sealed, all cables to and from them water blocking, batteries outside the loop.

Of current production the KISS (what little electronics there are) has it, the Prism has it, the MK series has had it for the past 30 odd years. The Meg comes close with the battery sealed inside its own housing, but inside the loop.

What the Prism and Meg add is the ability to partially recover the loop form a flood by placing drains into the counterlungs, one on each bag and one in the exhalation bag respectively.


With an eCCR you won't even need to do that, unless you either choose or need to fly it manually (the former is more common).

All you need to do is monitor, which on both the Prism and Meg comes easily with their DSV mounted LEDs: They are always in you field of vision without intruding!


That is only the case if you have the missing bits lying around you house ... tanks, valves, fitting BCD and 3 sensors ... otherwise you're looking at a bit more.


While I can't speak to the support as I'm not a customer I certainly got the same feedback. I always admired the no-nonsense approach they took to their marketing. And, having met them on a couple of occasions, I can say it was a pleasure and is well worth it.

By all means, FLTEC, check out the KISS and meet the two if you get a chance.

Just take a good look at what else is out there, ask yourself (as well as the builder) why they did what, and you'll find a rig that'll meet your needs and wants.

Wow, lot's to absorb !!!

I think to start the path, im going to semi closed such as the Dolphin, or Azmith, then atfter a year diving it, moving into CCR to do my tech diving-deep , by the time you add up 3 set's of doubles = $3000k, deco bottle's, reg's for each.,and primary reg's for your back gas, your well over $5000k.

So i thought by selling some of my OC gear for tech,. diving a semi closed now, learning that like you did, dive it for some 100 dives or so, then going to CCR for my deep wreck, and caves down the road, which i would like to train on CCR if thats going to be the path i choose to do that type of diving, at that time, (withen the next 2 years) and moving into tri-mix on CCR.

Im also reading up on them as we speak, the dolphin, and azi, but im looking into the KIss option for CCR also, appreciate it

 

[caveseeker7]

I think to start the path, im going to semi closed such as the Dolphin, or Azmith, then atfter a year diving it, moving into CCR to do my tech diving-deep ...

... diving a semi closed now, learning that like you did, dive it for some 100 dives or so, then going to CCR for my deep wreck, and caves down the road ...

Im also reading up on them as we speak, the dolphin, and azi, but im looking into the KIss option for CCR also, appreciate it

Personally I would skip the SCR part if I already knew it'll be just temporary. Quite some time, effort and money that I belive isn't well spend.

The Dolphin and Azi are both decent rebreathers with their advantages and disadvantages. You're obviously aware of the recreational depth limits.

Consider this when starting from scratch:
You'll spend about $3500 on a Dolphin, plus bailout tank with valve and first stage, another couple of $100s.
Or the Azi at around $4500 including bailout.
Training will set you back about another $350 - $450, and you want to get at least a O2 monitor (around $500) or better yet an O2 integrated deco computer (that you'll be able to use later - VR3 or Explorer $1200+).

You dive it for a year, then sell it off at a loss, and buy a CCR.
Now you're talking about $1000+ for training, the need to relearn skills again and for the third time you're back at being a novice. You will still need to clock dives before taking it into a wreck or cave, and all agencies I'm aware of require 100 hrs before trimix certification.

Instead consider this:
Rather than spend all the time and money on a SCR, spend some time researching the different features and capabilities of CCRs on the market. Use some of the money to do intros on the rigs, make sure you're around for the pre-dive set-up and checks. You want to see how involved they are to get ready for a dive, calibrate the sensors, etc. Get your money's worth.

In FL you'll find plenty of CCR instructors, for any CCR sold in the US, several of them cavers. Meet them, look and try their rigs, talk about their experiences. You're in the country's best location for that! Take advantage of it.

The travel and intros will cost you less than a SCR, and you'll come out knowing more about the different rigs. You'll get some hands-on time and can see what suits you and your needs best.

I never got certified on a Dolphin. I have more than enough hours on the old Atlantis, but first didn't have the money (college) and then thought they missed the point.

Looking back now, I'm glad I couln't afford it, because my first two experiences with rebreathers (SCR and CCR) had the "I want that!" effect, and both would have been disappointing.

Stefan