Reasons why you should not take a course through a dive shop

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You are throwing a very wide net with pessimistic anecdotal evidence.

The evidence has been gathered from >10 years of direct experience. I'm not sure you can call that anecdotal.

Are all shops like this? No.

But I would bet that all shops that are financially stable anno 2013 are at least similar in business model.

The question here is this: do you have evidence to the contrary?

R..

---------- Post added February 15th, 2013 at 04:41 PM ----------

In our area I wouldn't take anybody out without any training. Our area and those like it are challenging.
Ergo not the norm. If you're pulling on the "quality" corner then more power to you!

I guess you haven't been to enough stores.
Believe me, I have.

R..
 
Sounds like you want a bigger bite of the pie.... "MOST" dive shops are owned by divers that love the sport and are happy to try and make a living doing it.. I heard the same story when I ran an owned a skydive place... There will always be good and bad instructors and dive shops... That's why we get to choose..

Jim..
 
Diver0001 makes many points that may be true.

I can't comment on specific exceptions to the rule, of course. I commend anyone whose focus is "quality" and I would be happy to be associated with them.

Several people have commented (or PM'd) that my stance is cynical. I wish that it wasn't. What we're seeing here is that the scubaboard population of instructors is no "typical". Anyone motivated enough to pull hardest on the "quality" corner of the triangle is, in my experience, the exception. This discussion only proves that they *are* out there.....

R..
 
Interesting post. I do disagree to some extent. It is to the shop's benefit to keep you under-educated about "some" things, not everything. The shops I know that do a fair amount of training are conscientious and dedicated. They insist you learn and truly know the material. They also know that there is a whole world out there that you do not know about and will never understand. If you pass the OW, then it's advanced, if you pass advanced, then DM or instructor, you need to go on a boat, take your boat course. You interested in diving long times, take an advanced nitrox, or rebreather course. Oh and, by the way, I have some nice rebreathers on sale. There is no end to (Padi) coures available or the associated gear required.

No, the shop is fully satisfied if you learn their course material, knowing that it is never enough for us.
 
I fall somewhere in between Diver0001's perspective and mcguiver's. I'm an independent instructor who has taught at dive shops and chosen the independent route. I have good experiences and relationships with some shops, and less good ones with others. I know LDS owners who are exactly what Diver0001 describes, and others who are almost the exact opposite ... unfortunately the latter are more of an exception, but they're out there. I've met great instructors who teach through shops and bad instructors who are independent instructors ... and vice versa. I know many reasons why someone chooses one or the other ... and I'm sure there are even more reasons that I'm unaware of. And while much of what Diver0001 wrote is similar to some of my experiences, I think the brush is somewhat too broad.

I think Rob covered the downside of teaching through a shop fairly well ... there is an inherent conflict in taking a course through a dive shop in that quality costs money and the majority of people looking for a class do so strictly based on finding the lowest price. So there's a constant pressure on shops to keep the price down. Shops don't generally make their money on dive instruction ... they make it on equipment sales. So the classes serve the purpose of getting the customers into the store to purchase dive gear. In this respect, there is an inherent motivation to keep the classes as minimalistic as possible, to keep the costs down. And ... as Rob points out ... to keep students motivated in signing up for the next class. This isn't all the dive shop's fault ... it's also in the interest of the agency providing the certification, because they make their money by selling as many classes as possible. And the agencies provide that service whether through a shop or an independent instructor. So in some respects, the independent instructor has the same motivation to keep you dependent on the next class.

So who really looks out for the best interest of the student diver? Well ... it depends. It might be the instructor. It might be the shop owner. It might be both ... or neither. It's really going to depend on the philosophy, integrity, and business motivation of the individual. Independent instructors tend to increase your odds, because they don't typically sell dive gear ... and that removes one of the motivations for cutting corners on instruction. And many independents teach scuba as a sideline, and have other income to pay their bills with. So they're more likely to go the extra distance for the student who struggles. Independents also tend to teach smaller classes ... and let's be honest ... you're more likely to get more out of a class with 2 or 3 students than you will out of a class with 7 or 8. In larger classes, everyone will be paced to accommodate the learning curve of the slowest student ... even when the instructor sends that student off with a DM to work on whatever they're struggling with in order to keep the rest of the class moving.

Regardless of whether you're pursuing dive instruction through a shop or an independent, the interviewing process Rob mentioned is worthwhile. But I'd like to add some things to it. First let me say that, when signing up for a class through a shop, always ask to speak to the instructor who will be teaching it ... of course, when going to an independent instructor, you will be dealing directly with the instructor from the beginning. Here are some good questions to ask ...

- How long have you been teaching? While this is not a direct indication of whether the person is a good instructor or not, it is an indication of the person's commitment to scuba instruction. The average instructor lasts only two or three years. And although it's quite possible to find a freshly minted instructor who is committed to quality, it's even more likely to find one who has barely had the time to learn how to dive themselves.

- How long did you dive before you began teaching? This will give you a pretty good indication whether or not the instructor has had time to develop good techniques, apply skills and knowledge in the real world, and develop a context wherein they can go past what's in the book.

- How much diving do you do outside of classes? This is a really good way to find out whether you're dealing with an instructor who's enthusiastic about diving, or is burning out on teaching all the time. You'll want to avoid the latter ... regardless of whether they're a shop instructor or an independent.

- Do you teach strictly to agency standards, or add material? If the latter, what do you add and why? This will help you find out whether or not the instructor is going to give you the minimum required course, or a course designed to teach you how to dive in your environment. By their nature, the student materials developed by the agencies target the largest audience ... the tropical vacation diver. They do little to prepare people to dive in the more challenging conditions that many locals dive in ... whether that be cold-water quarries, surf and surge conditions like you can get in places like California and Hawaii, high-current environments, low-vis conditions, and a host of others that many local environments have to teach at the entry level because that's what you'll have to contend with for local diving.

- What do you do for people who need extra time? None of the shops I've worked for ever encouraged me to pass people who weren't ready. But they did make it clear that it was my responsibility to decide what to do about it. One shop encouraged me to have the student come back and join the next scheduled class to continue working on it. Another said if I wanted to add more time it was my responsibility, and they wouldn't pay me anything extra ... or charge the student anything extra. In effect, I'd be donating my time and effort on the student's behalf. Now, as an independent, I do that anyway ... but I charge more for my class, and the shop doesn't get a cut, so the cost for that extra help is built into my business model.

As you talk to the instructor, take note of how explanatory his or her answers are ... a good instructor will always be able to explain the "why" of anything they tell you. And this matters, because diving is a very situational activity and understanding the "why" often helps you make better decisions.

And finally, understand that many independent instructors work through shops ... either as contractors or business partners. Some shops view independent instructors as competition ... these will often be shops you'll want to avoid because there is a definite correlation between this attitude and a dive shop's willingness to look out for the best interest of its clients. Other shops view independent instructors as a resource ... either one who can offer services through their store or one who, by establishing a business relationship, can help bring clients to the attention of their business. This attitude is often indicative of a business that truly tries to look out for the best interest of their customers.

Dive shops are a resource. They're not all run by people who understand how to run a successful business ... and the pressures of putting a lot of money into the business can sometimes motivate the owners to make decisions that aren't in the best interest of their customers. But not all shops are like that. Many do look out for the best interest of their customers ... or at least, they try to based on what they believe those interests to be. As an independent instructor I don't view dive shops as competitors ... sometimes if I cannot accommodate a student I will try to hook them up with a shop instructor who can. The key is knowing who the good ones are ... and there are some good ones out there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Sounds like you want a bigger bite of the pie....

I presume this was directed at me. The answer is no. I've been playing this game for a while now and I don't care at all about "volume". The only thing that interests me at this point is that my students know how to dive. I'm not one of those instructors who wants to make money teaching. I want good results. Full stop.

R..
 
If you look at this in a historical context, all divers were self reliant before dive agencies and instructors.
 
Here is the problem with your position. It assumes all shops are the same, and ignores the fact that some (most likely the most successful) are ran by good people who understand customers are why they are there, many divers themselves

and it assumes that all individual instructors are stellar people with the psychology and insight to be the best fit for every person on earth. My Wife and daughter went through a local shop did fine. I had just had neck surgery. I had to agree to physical therapy 5 days a week and have excellent incision healing done in 6 weeks for all my doctors to sign off on me even taking the pool part much less open water. I worked very hard to make that goal as the trip was scheduled and the surgery was a surprise. We were getting married. So I had to hire a personal instructor. The guy was nice enough. But he did it all in one night, and I do not get the feeling he cared poo. He just wanted his check and to get done.

So while your statement may be true if your comfortable with stereotypes, I have to say that is too broad given the variety of animals I have encountered at all levels of diving.
My favorite is the guy with the most expensive gear you can buy in a head to toe wet suit in Cozumel in July.
 
If you look at this in a historical context, all divers were self reliant before dive agencies and instructors.

And the accident rates were off the scale as compared to today. Getting training (even poor training offered through a shop) is still better than how it was in the "good old days".

R..
 

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