I use two regs, one as my primary and one bungied under my chin. When I can I use then on double posts so if one malfunctions (and they do) I can use the other. Also, when an OOA diver comes to you, he is not going to patiently wait for you to sort yourself out for air. The OOA diver is going to grab the one out of your mouth. If you fumble with your airII or have to unclip your octopus, you will be in trouble too. If it's bungied around your neck, you know where it is.
Reason for diving with two reg's?
- Thread starter oldmossback
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I think what you are seeing is an evolution in sport diving and rec-tec diving. Diving started with small tanks and to increase capacity when to doubles. At the time it was sufficient (the days when sex was safe and diving was dangerous). As cylinders got bigger, the need for doubles and manifolds became an unnecessary expense. In the cave diving world, the need for added capacity and redundancy created the isolation manifold. Since redundancy is a good thing, other folks looking for additional capacity and redundancy (deep, wreck, etc.) adopted the equipment. As "tech" diving is becoming more common for sport/recreational divers, the equipment is standardized.
It is an evolution, just like the addition of seatbelts and airbags in the car. Most of us will never need them, but they are there just in case. Will I ever have a failure where I need the isolation manifold and my second reg? I hope not, but I'm going to continue to do valve drills and shoulder stretches - JUST IN CASE.
Edit - One thing not mentioned is use of an H-Valve on a single tank. While it is added redundancy, it is a situation where the cost/benefit may not be that great, hence the lack of large scale adoption.
It is an evolution, just like the addition of seatbelts and airbags in the car. Most of us will never need them, but they are there just in case. Will I ever have a failure where I need the isolation manifold and my second reg? I hope not, but I'm going to continue to do valve drills and shoulder stretches - JUST IN CASE.
Edit - One thing not mentioned is use of an H-Valve on a single tank. While it is added redundancy, it is a situation where the cost/benefit may not be that great, hence the lack of large scale adoption.
halocline
Contributor
First, 2 regulators/posts is standard for overhead diving, not open water. While I understand you're reminiscing about the good old days, please keep in mind that the 'good old days' of cave diving meant a lot of people died diving in them with recreational gear.
Second, two of something does NOT mean twice as much to go wrong, unless of course you need BOTH things to function safely. In redundancy, EITHER thing is enough for safety, so two of something means half as much can go wrong. I'm a little surprised that you, as someone designing a regulator, do not easily and readily understand this. Or am I missing something?
I get that you're basically lamenting the complexity of modern gear, but those arguments I quoted are simply wrong. Please don't take offense; none is intended.
I am just not seeing the trend, true, when I dive in Florida I do see other wing/bp divers and the occasional tech doubles rig but I am just not seeing this trend.
Over the last few years I do see more singles BP/wing and Hog rigging but still it is rare, though once last year in the Keys, everyone on the boat had a singles BP/wing and the captain noticed and said that was rare and in fact a first for him, a six pack full of wing/BPs even though I was rigged with a double hose on mine,
.
Just back from GC and I saw not a single BP/wing anywhere other than mine and perhaps one Transpac. I saw no doubles and nobody sporting two full regs. I don't think you should extrapolate the virtual Scubaboard Universe to the real world, while everyone here dives doubles and double regs and isolation manifold in a dry suit with Jets for every dive, that is not the way it is in the real world and does not represent what happens in the real world either.
N
Over the last few years I do see more singles BP/wing and Hog rigging but still it is rare, though once last year in the Keys, everyone on the boat had a singles BP/wing and the captain noticed and said that was rare and in fact a first for him, a six pack full of wing/BPs even though I was rigged with a double hose on mine,
.Just back from GC and I saw not a single BP/wing anywhere other than mine and perhaps one Transpac. I saw no doubles and nobody sporting two full regs. I don't think you should extrapolate the virtual Scubaboard Universe to the real world, while everyone here dives doubles and double regs and isolation manifold in a dry suit with Jets for every dive, that is not the way it is in the real world and does not represent what happens in the real world either.
N
Those sound like good reasons, you say the OOA diver will grab the reg from my mouth though in some 44 years of diving including in instructional context I can recall at the moment that happening only once.
If your regulators are failing at a rate sufficient to warrant your always having two even for an open water dive, you either need better equipment or better maintenance or both.
You are in the no BS Zone Vintage section where some of us have been diving for decades, not months or years and we sorta know and have experienced some of this.
N
JamesBon92007
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Nemrod, what were the cirsumstances when the diver grabbed your reg? How deep? Was the other diver really out of air or just panicked? Why were they out of air? Did their regulator break?
Many of us used to dive (some still do) without a SPG or even a J-Valve and did this on a regualar basis without incident. I guess I'm just trying to imagine a situation where the extra gear would be needed for an open water dive without any equipment failure. Less than 80 feet, I reckon, which is where I've spend most of my time.
Many of us used to dive (some still do) without a SPG or even a J-Valve and did this on a regualar basis without incident. I guess I'm just trying to imagine a situation where the extra gear would be needed for an open water dive without any equipment failure. Less than 80 feet, I reckon, which is where I've spend most of my time.
Mr. Bond, it was many years ago, about 1974, before--before--there were octopus safe seconds in normal use. I was an AI, one of three and we were doing a check out dive for a large class of students. I had I think six with me, I think there were 20 total and the third dive was in 60 feet, hey, I worked for the shop, I was just a college kid!
One of the other AIs group apparently got split up while he was dealing with another issue, a runaway student. They had gone in about 20 minutes before my group, my group was doing well and we were cruising along when I came upon a group of three students, split away and lost from the other AI. I noticed one of them, a lady, seemed to be signaling to the other two who were not paying her any attention. I realized she was out of air, flat, bone dry!!!!! I went into Nemrod Hyper Speed just as she was about to bolt for the surface, she indeed grabbed my regulator from my mouth and was not much in a mood to share it back with me. We began a controlled ascent straight away buddy breathing as soon as I got my students and the other two together and aware that we were ALL going up and some control over the lady. We all surfaced together, all OK, all holding hands except for me and the lady who I had her facing me, mask to mask.
I ran flat out of air once myself, yeah, yeah, don't jump on me, it was circa 1984 and my wife and I had been partnered with a couple of other divers on a drift out of Ft. Lauderdale, I was given the float to tow. There was an awful lot of current that day and we were in about 90 feet of water. One of the guys in my group kept dragging behind and swimming off thus forcing me to hold into the current, it was during a time I was uber fit and I simply vacuumed the air down, one minute I had 2,000 and the next I had none, being highly fit not only allows you to be efficient in air consumption but it also allows your body to consume lot's of O2 if needed for extreme exertion and I guess my fitness level just did not register that I was working very hard. It was about then that I learned to not volunteer for towing duty nor to reveal any "credentials" that I might have, unless I am being paid. Anyways, my wife was a good twenty yards away, I signaled OOA, she and I met, we buddy breathed as we headed up. I did not yank my wife's regulator from her mouth, we calmly handled the situation and at about 50 feet I let her go and I did a leisurely free ascent exhaling all the way. After getting fussed at by the captain, we went and bought a set of safe seconds
. Last summer, in the Keys, on the Spiegal, I shared air with a guy, he was not OOA but he was low, he was not my buddy, I had plenty so I let him milk my 40 inch octopus, I stayed on my primary, my Royal Aqua Master double hose. He did not panic but he was concerned and it was the concern in his eyes that prompted me to check his spg and see 600 psi and he was a long way back on the wreck from the buoy line, current again.
Anyways, that is just a few, of many similar, I just don't find that people immediately go berserk and grab your regulator from your mouth especially if you have deployed your octopus and have it gurgling bubbles as you assist them getting it in their mouth. My opinion, people are less likely to panic and do weird things if you keep them close and make good eye and body contact. I am not saying they don't either sometimes panic and grab, be prepared for anything, especially if you have new divers and you are a DM/AI/I etc. I do believe that if you make good eye contact, it is reassuring to them and especially if they know you are one of their instructors and they trust you to take over and make it all warm and fuzzy and that is why the dive professional is there, to make it OK.
N
OP
oldmossback
Contributor
My rant as some of you called it (I had a more derogatory expression for my complaining,not fit for this forum, starts with a B and rimes with witch)......is about the demise of the old basic gear..........yes I can and do understand the need for specialized gear in the speciality diving (to use an old PADI expxression====don't shoot me) world........my rant, complaint.....b....is this has extinguished some of the older, proven and to me better pieces of equipment. And the reason Nemrod, is money!.......the market for twin manifolds apparently is focused on the tech diver as well as the concept of two regulators.....it's the tech market manufactures service......but at a price to other fields of sport diving........and now wanna be's are starting to get this same equipment. Not a flood yet....but I see it coming.
I was perusing thru the online cataloges of the tank manufactures and valve manufactures and distributors and there is nothing there I could or would use.......(I haven't looked at tanks or valve cataloges in years.....didn't need to) I was surprised, unhapply, that the tried and proven twin tank manifolds are no longer made.......the neat and compac "pony" bottles Wellington advertize are no longer made as well........I believe they were 30 and 45 cuft bottles.......So I have to continue to use these older pieces of equipment that parts are getting hard to find replacement for.
I've seen guys, and one girl here in the Texas lakes with twin manifold, two regs etc....half a dozen lights diving in a Lake?.....what on earth for?.....the only danger in a Texas lake is fishing line entanglement or getting run over by a ski boat......maybe these folks should were helmets too! Terry, we have lakes that you can make a dive at high noon and call it a night dive.
For me, one reg is enough....I do not fear regulator malfunctions, as I take care of my stuff......be it 40 feet or 150......USD, Aqua Lung, Scuba Pro and their cloned models, 1st stages (unless maintenanced badly) never fail......second stages......DH, never fail.......Single hose.....perhaps icing or debri, but not mechanical......at least not in these brands, to my knowledge.
My Mk3 should never fail as the Phoenix should never fail, unless someone badly assembles or adjusts it.......they are really just different housings for the proven USD design......I, like Luis I think, designed it because I did not like the piping, hose crossing etc, one gets with a splitter off the hooka port and banjo for the spg. To me this was not safe, but make the DH more simple and yet modern.
Other parts of this forum discuss twin posts, twin tanks etc.......I know scuba board is just a fraction of the total number of people who actually are divers in the world..est: 10 million at any one time?.....however, I see the encroachment of the techie type into what would be called normal sport diving.....maybe not this year or in the next 5 even......50 years from now, I fear divers will be amazed at the daring of old divers going into the deep with just one regulator.........this I think is the future....and I think it is silly.
Bottom line for me is this............... sport diving should be fun, to me too much equipment takes the focus off why we are under the water in the first place.....the awe, beauty, freedom and peace we find there....worrying about do I have enough gear to be safe? Regulator failure, air exhaustion, reading guages, etc.......takes away from your enjoyment of the scenes around you.......
Isn't this why trained vintage divers still use the old minimual equipment and techniques?
I was perusing thru the online cataloges of the tank manufactures and valve manufactures and distributors and there is nothing there I could or would use.......(I haven't looked at tanks or valve cataloges in years.....didn't need to) I was surprised, unhapply, that the tried and proven twin tank manifolds are no longer made.......the neat and compac "pony" bottles Wellington advertize are no longer made as well........I believe they were 30 and 45 cuft bottles.......So I have to continue to use these older pieces of equipment that parts are getting hard to find replacement for.
I've seen guys, and one girl here in the Texas lakes with twin manifold, two regs etc....half a dozen lights diving in a Lake?.....what on earth for?.....the only danger in a Texas lake is fishing line entanglement or getting run over by a ski boat......maybe these folks should were helmets too! Terry, we have lakes that you can make a dive at high noon and call it a night dive.
For me, one reg is enough....I do not fear regulator malfunctions, as I take care of my stuff......be it 40 feet or 150......USD, Aqua Lung, Scuba Pro and their cloned models, 1st stages (unless maintenanced badly) never fail......second stages......DH, never fail.......Single hose.....perhaps icing or debri, but not mechanical......at least not in these brands, to my knowledge.
My Mk3 should never fail as the Phoenix should never fail, unless someone badly assembles or adjusts it.......they are really just different housings for the proven USD design......I, like Luis I think, designed it because I did not like the piping, hose crossing etc, one gets with a splitter off the hooka port and banjo for the spg. To me this was not safe, but make the DH more simple and yet modern.
Other parts of this forum discuss twin posts, twin tanks etc.......I know scuba board is just a fraction of the total number of people who actually are divers in the world..est: 10 million at any one time?.....however, I see the encroachment of the techie type into what would be called normal sport diving.....maybe not this year or in the next 5 even......50 years from now, I fear divers will be amazed at the daring of old divers going into the deep with just one regulator.........this I think is the future....and I think it is silly.
Bottom line for me is this............... sport diving should be fun, to me too much equipment takes the focus off why we are under the water in the first place.....the awe, beauty, freedom and peace we find there....worrying about do I have enough gear to be safe? Regulator failure, air exhaustion, reading guages, etc.......takes away from your enjoyment of the scenes around you.......
Isn't this why trained vintage divers still use the old minimual equipment and techniques?
OP
oldmossback
Contributor
Matt,
Modern gear isn't anymore complex than what it was 40 years ago, save for dive computers..there is just more of it, increasing the work load of the diver........taking away his/her time enjoying their surroundings.
Yeah, there's plenty of reasons for this redundancy in speciality diving..........I do not think there is in normal sport diving. I think this trend will one day engulf all of the sport.....
Modern gear isn't anymore complex than what it was 40 years ago, save for dive computers..there is just more of it, increasing the work load of the diver........taking away his/her time enjoying their surroundings.
Yeah, there's plenty of reasons for this redundancy in speciality diving..........I do not think there is in normal sport diving. I think this trend will one day engulf all of the sport.....
HenrikBP
Contributor
I don't think you need to worry Mossback
I think you're spot on that market and $$ drives the change in the marketplace wrt. what divers in general use and therefore what is produced. But I doubt big double tanks, double reg sets, long hoses, can lights and all that ever becomes "main stream".1) only a small portion of divers and dive shops even know much about the "extended range" gear set-up (I'm not a big fan of the "Tech" moniker), so it is not what is sold in most dive shops. Those shops are more than happy to sell divers "upgrades" to replace their already perfectly adequate gear. See - there are more ways to sell divers a multitude of regulators
2) most of the sport divers that see how much crap some of us take with us in the water (at least sometimes), just shake their heads in disbelief and swear they'll never do that
I do believe though, that we should all participate in this sport in the ways that gives us the most enjoyment, so as long as I'm having fun practicing in 30' of green water in full "get-up", well then I think that's ok too.
Henrik
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