Reason for diving with two reg's?

[oldmossback]

Ok, I know I am going to get shot full of holes here asking this question. However, I have seen many comments and stories and explainations etc. concerning the techie diving techniques etc...........and I would really appreciate someone explaining rationally and with taste an answer to my question.

For sport diving,........what started this business of needing two regulators, twin manifold posts and God knows what else?

I've been in and out of the water for over 40 years, and I have to admit I have never read a techinical manual for tech diving........hell, I never heard of tech diving until I started subscribing to this forum and to other forums..........I was blissfully land locked diving my dirty lakes here in Texas or Cozumel, or around the South American continent and in my service time, Okinawa and California. I knew of specialized diving, but that was far far from sport diving.

I understand that there has to be some specialized gear requirements for some types of diving, IE: caving, deep wreck penatration etc. but why and how did it migrate into the sport diving field?

Again why two regulators? Are the new regs on the market that crappy that the diver must have two so if one fails he has a bailout? I think this reasoning has smothered the sport diving industry, covering it with redunancy equipment instead of cool, fun stuff.

USD (now Aqua Lung) Scuba Pro, Dacor and Sportsways (the last two now defunct as is Tekna) did not have failure problems that I am aware of, unless the diver was a absolute clown and mistreated his equipment.

Are techie's that much afraid of their gear? Or is this just a "gotta have this" enviroment now days?...........

If men were diving 200 plus feet on the Andrea Dora with single stage double hoses and the Navies of the world used USD, SP etc for decades, doesn't one think all the possible bugs would be worked out by now? That these regs are safer than breathing on your own in your sleep?

I have seen drawings, etc of some of the new regs, and save for some fancy gizmos to justify a patent, they pretty much are the same design of the original manufactures....

This gotta have two to dive business has driven the manufactures to sell the twin post manifolds exclusively......IE: there are no new single center post manifolds now......there are no new short light weight low volume tanks (38cuft or 45 cuft's) that can be utilized as small twin packages.........

a lot of the coolness and romance of diving is gone..........

don't tell me diving with small twins or large ones for that matter isn't cool, Sea Hunt got a lot of us into this in the first place.......Nelson with his double 38's was cool!!!!

I know some of you vintage guys go deep still on a single double hose, I suspect without a bailout bottle also........maybe I'm wrong there, but you still dive one reg. But we are getting on in age and the new kids have taken over.........but who told them they needed two of everything to be safe? And why?

I've have trouble when diving and my training got me out of the jams.......not a second regulator.

I'd like to have a new set of twin 38 or 40's for the diving I do, new modern steel tanks for higher pressure,..with a new hipressure single center post manifold....but nope.......there isn't a market because the techie's have sucked all the air out of the room............gadddds..................the word comes to me....techies
= new divers = lemmings

Twin engine aircraft were prized once as well, there are still some built but the General Aviation industry builds more of the single engines.........for many reasons, one of which is:

Two of something means twice as much to go wrong; twice as much to remember when you're borderline panicky!..This old adage about twin engines applies to two regulators as well I would think!......when you're busy and in trouble flying or diving.....you need to focus on your training and have a plan.......not rely on redundant equipment.


I guess I'm getting too old............but I truely believe that there is something seriously wrong with this sport today..........lack of training? Lack of common sense? or too much pandering to gadets..........

Would someone please nicely explain where I am wrong or right?

Oldmossback

 

[Nemrod]

I am not aware that two complete regulators is a trend in open water sport diving. In cave/tech/wreck circles double regulators and various attempts and strategies to devise fully redundant systems has been in practice (or attempted practice) since the early 70s at least.

I think that we do occasionally see the DIR/GUE trained tech divers using their full tech rig for open water but aside from these few and a few other tag-alongs, that is simply not a trend. I don't mean this in a negative, it entirely makes sense to practice with the gear you intend to use for a tech dive during open water dives that could otherwise certainly be completed safely with a standard single and octo/safe second rig instead.

The octopus/safe second as you know goes back to the 70s and it was and is a worthwhile accommodation to improved diver safety with a minimal increase in complexity and costs.

N

 

[Cave Diver]

Are you asking why have a second reg (first stage) or a second reg (second stage)?

 

[elmer fudd]

Having an octopus also means you have a spare reg for your buddy.

And there are a few mid range tanks out there, (but not many). Faber makes a 45 and there are AL40's.

As far as them manifolds go though, I think you're right. You have to buy vintage gear to get a single post manifold. Myself I'd like to make a set of triples, but if I do it I'll probably have to fabricate my own manifold.

 

[Nemrod]

I appreciate the rant, I guess because of my tech exposure along the way I don't get as bent out of shape (pun) as some might despite the fact that I think I am the Webster definition of minimalist scuba diver, .

People are very technology dependent today, they expect layers of technology to shield them and to filter the experience.

I don't think we will see a 6.9 inch 45 ever again or a widely marketed single/center post double manifold.

One big difference is that today, while there are tons of divers who dive local, the huge majority, who make the cash registers go clang, clang, are vacation divers, once or twice a year, they often don't even own a tank(s) and have no interest in any sort of local diving. You cannot put twin 50s in a suitcase so why bother with them would be their thinking. They want a jacket to help them float and trim out, they want a fancy Scuba Steve wetsuit and they want to look cool even if they have no idea what cool is. They are just having fun and as long as they stay off the reef or off the bottom, I don't care, I guess I am mellowing out.

Yes, some of us can and do dive to significant depths using a single regulator, alone, shhh, don't tell .

N

 

[AfterDark]

I use independent doubles. This is two single tanks each with a regulator mounted as doubles. My reasons are:

1. I use a lot of gas so I need 2 tanks for capacity to extend my time and range.

2. I solo dive so a redunant gas supply provides me with a second source of gas in the unlikley OOG event. (Same reason we have life vests on a boat.)

3. I don't need an octopus as the regulator I'm not using is my octo.

4. I can use them as singles to make 2 short deep dives or 2 longer shallow dive or any combination of the two.

5. The 2 steel tanks reduce the need for a lot of weight to become negitive. I was using 36 lbs. I'm down to 24lbs.

Hope this helps answer your question. You might be familar with the regulators I'm using one is a ScubaPro MK5 the other is a ScubaPro AIR Pilot both very reliable regulators built during the era your referring to. My other MK5 failed closed, no air on land during setup testing because some mush for brains "tech" used the wrong poppet / spring combo. If that had failed at depth the second regulator would have come in handy. It's not only the quality of the regulator that comes into play.

 

[cloudflint]

This gotta have two to dive business has driven the manufactures to sell the twin post manifolds exclusively......IE: there are no new single center post manifolds now

If it makes you feel any better ive been diving for 3-4 years and been hanging around divers all my life and i had never seen a tank with a H valve i.e. twin post manifold in my life until one of the guys in my club bought one off the internet second hand. We all find it an incredibly bizarre thing.

I do see alot of guys diving with pony bottles though which ive never really understood. Even if the worse happened and your 1st stage stopped functioning surely that's one of the reasons why we dive in pairs. It seems that the pony bottles cause more incidents than they solve through the added complexity they bring. The amount of equipment these divers are carrying for fairly shallow dives is absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

 

[NC Wreck Diver]

Ok, I know I am going to get shot full of holes here asking this question. However, I have seen many comments and stories and explainations etc. concerning the techie diving techniques etc...........and I would really appreciate someone explaining rationally and with taste an answer to my question.

For sport diving,........what started this business of needing two regulators, twin manifold posts and God knows what else?

I've been in and out of the water for over 40 years, and I have to admit I have never read a techinical manual for tech diving........hell, I never heard of tech diving until I started subscribing to this forum and to other forums..........I was blissfully land locked diving my dirty lakes here in Texas or Cozumel, or around the South American continent and in my service time, Okinawa and California. I knew of specialized diving, but that was far far from sport diving.

I understand that there has to be some specialized gear requirements for some types of diving, IE: caving, deep wreck penatration etc. but why and how did it migrate into the sport diving field?

Again why two regulators? Are the new regs on the market that crappy that the diver must have two so if one fails he has a bailout? I think this reasoning has smothered the sport diving industry, covering it with redunancy equipment instead of cool, fun stuff.

USD (now Aqua Lung) Scuba Pro, Dacor and Sportsways (the last two now defunct as is Tekna) did not have failure problems that I am aware of, unless the diver was a absolute clown and mistreated his equipment.

Are techie's that much afraid of their gear? Or is this just a "gotta have this" enviroment now days?...........

If men were diving 200 plus feet on the Andrea Dora with single stage double hoses and the Navies of the world used USD, SP etc for decades, doesn't one think all the possible bugs would be worked out by now? That these regs are safer than breathing on your own in your sleep?

I have seen drawings, etc of some of the new regs, and save for some fancy gizmos to justify a patent, they pretty much are the same design of the original manufactures....

This gotta have two to dive business has driven the manufactures to sell the twin post manifolds exclusively......IE: there are no new single center post manifolds now......there are no new short light weight low volume tanks (38cuft or 45 cuft's) that can be utilized as small twin packages.........

a lot of the coolness and romance of diving is gone..........

don't tell me diving with small twins or large ones for that matter isn't cool, Sea Hunt got a lot of us into this in the first place.......Nelson with his double 38's was cool!!!!

I know some of you vintage guys go deep still on a single double hose, I suspect without a bailout bottle also........maybe I'm wrong there, but you still dive one reg. But we are getting on in age and the new kids have taken over.........but who told them they needed two of everything to be safe? And why?

I've have trouble when diving and my training got me out of the jams.......not a second regulator.

I'd like to have a new set of twin 38 or 40's for the diving I do, new modern steel tanks for higher pressure,..with a new hipressure single center post manifold....but nope.......there isn't a market because the techie's have sucked all the air out of the room............gadddds..................the word comes to me....techies
= new divers = lemmings

Twin engine aircraft were prized once as well, there are still some built but the General Aviation industry builds more of the single engines.........for many reasons, one of which is:

Two of something means twice as much to go wrong; twice as much to remember when you're borderline panicky!..This old adage about twin engines applies to two regulators as well I would think!......when you're busy and in trouble flying or diving.....you need to focus on your training and have a plan.......not rely on redundant equipment.


I guess I'm getting too old............but I truely believe that there is something seriously wrong with this sport today..........lack of training? Lack of common sense? or too much pandering to gadets..........

Would someone please nicely explain where I am wrong or right?

Oldmossback

Hey Oldmossback:

OK, here is my 2 cents............I dive with doubles on every dive. I use high quality ScubaPro regulators on my rig. They have never failed me, and I do all yearly services on them, along with cleaning them every dive day (salt or fresh water). My three sets of doubles all have isolation valves on them, so, in case of any mechanical problem, I can shut down one tank, and easily use the other. It's just a matter of redundancy. We dive in our local quarry, and offshore from NY, NJ, down to NC, along with the St. Lawrence Seaway. Sometimes these conditions can be rough and tricky, so we are prepared for any contingency. Most times it's a beautiful day, and the extra gear just feels good to have along. Along with this gear, I carry a 30 cu ft pony bottle, and an AIR2 on my BC. So I dive with 3 first stages with four second stages. If I run into an OOA diver, I give him my primary, and pick up my octo, which has a necklace around my neck for instant pick up. My 30 is slung, so it's there for my use, or to hand it off to someone who needs it. There are times I come home on my pony just for the practice, and now my backgas is my redundant supply. I like to practice this, so if an OOA condition happens, I have some good training on all functions of my set up. It's not just being a gear hog, it's just thinking about and being prepared for any contingency that MAY happen underwater.

I understand your point about twin engines on aircraft and the comment about Sea Hunt. I too was a kid infactuated with Mike Nelson, and we watched the show religously. Even to the point of strapping two Quaker Oats containers on our backs when we watched the show (I was even diving doubles then!). Safe Diving to you.

 

[elmer fudd]

I do see alot of guys diving with pony bottles though which ive never really understood. Even if the worse happened and your 1st stage stopped functioning surely that's one of the reasons why we dive in pairs. It seems that the pony bottles cause more incidents than they solve through the added complexity they bring. The amount of equipment these divers are carrying for fairly shallow dives is absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

Some of us don't always dive in pairs.

 

[cloudflint]

Some of us don't always dive in pairs.

Some don't, but most do I can understand having a totally separate system if your diving solo but for a regular 30m or shallower dive with no decompression stops and with my buddy within arms reach ive never seen the need really.