R109 Sealing Issue

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Yep, what you're describing is the crux of the issue with the different levers. I did have a surprise with some of those levers, look at post #60 in that thread. When the feet angle is less steep, which is the case with the new levers, you'd think that would result in a too-high lever. But it's not the case; there's also an angle at the diaphragm end of the lever and that changes too.

Maybe someone has better information than I do, but my conclusion has been just to experiment with different levers until you get one that works well.
 
I played around with bending the feet on my bad breathing R109 lever and got the cracking effort down to about 1.25". I lowered the angle of the feet resulting in the lever being slightly lowered when installed. I'd like to go further and see what happens, but I don't want to damage this lever until I can find a new lever. Now it breaths pretty well, but I'm sure it can do a little better. I tried switching out diaphragms, but it really didn't make much of a difference. Changing them did require an adjustment on each orifice because of the difference in diaphragm height.

So, things are improving and I'm learning a lot. All the on and off again with the cover took its toll on the old rubber purge disc and I'll be needing a new one of those too. The good news is that I seem to be on the right track.

Thanks everyone.
 
I've been brooding over the lever height issue and I believe that it stems from the fact that the old poppet is longer (from the point of contact with the lever feet and the seat) than the duro poppet that replaces the original part. In the picture below the part of the poppet where the feet of the lever sits are more or less lined up and you can see that the new (more white) poppet is shorter. I am presuming that the shorter distance between the seat and the where the feet rest is causing the lever to sit higher than would be the case with the old seat. This causes me to call into question whether any of the three lever versions would really perform as well as the regulator did with the old poppet. I took some approximate measurements from the spot on the seat where the feet rest and the seat and on the old one it is .514" and the new one is .482". I'm taking away from all this that the levers with the lower foot angle will perform better than the ones with the higher angle due to the change in the poppet size.

Maybe a thicker material for the seat could make up some of the difference?
 

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I've found that tuning is never a problem with either the s-wing poppet or the duro poppet when coupled with the lever on the left in this picture. With either of the other levers it's hit or miss; especially with the one on the right.

 
I've been brooding over the lever height issue and I believe that it stems from the fact that the old poppet is longer (from the point of contact with the lever feet and the seat) than the duro poppet that replaces the original part. In the picture below the part of the poppet where the feet of the lever sits are more or less lined up and you can see that the new (more white) poppet is shorter. I am presuming that the shorter distance between the seat and the where the feet rest is causing the lever to sit higher than would be the case with the old seat. This causes me to call into question whether any of the three lever versions would really perform as well as the regulator did with the old poppet. I took some approximate measurements from the spot on the seat where the feet rest and the seat and on the old one it is .514" and the new one is .482". I'm taking away from all this that the levers with the lower foot angle will perform better than the ones with the higher angle due to the change in the poppet size.

Maybe a thicker material for the seat could make up some of the difference?

A quality product like Scubapro has plastic poppets? I only worked on Conshelf second stages with nice chrome plated brass poppets. This does not inspire confidence in Scubapro products. I hope the "good" Scubapro second stages have metal poppets. Is this considered trolling?
 
I played around with bending the feet on my bad breathing R109 lever and got the cracking effort down to about 1.25". I lowered the angle of the feet resulting in the lever being slightly lowered when installed. I'd like to go further and see what happens, but I don't want to damage this lever until I can find a new lever. Now it breaths pretty well, but I'm sure it can do a little better. I tried switching out diaphragms, but it really didn't make much of a difference. Changing them did require an adjustment on each orifice because of the difference in diaphragm height.

So, things are improving and I'm learning a lot. All the on and off again with the cover took its toll on the old rubber purge disc and I'll be needing a new one of those too. The good news is that I seem to be on the right track.

Thanks everyone.
Please just stop.

Removing a lever from a 109 (or any other SP air barrel) should be a very rare thing as each time you remove it and re-install it you run the risk of bending or at least weakening the arms of the lever.

Bending the feet on the lever is a major no-no and don't worry about ruining the lever - you already have.

The sad part here is that there seems to be some really bad advice on adjusting lever height with a focus on a specific distance above the case etc that is borrowed from other entirely different designs (US Divers, etc.)

With the 109, what matters is that:

1. You pre-set the orifice about 1.5 turns out from all the way in
2. Assemble the reg including the poppet, spring and spring pad (I won't mention the lever as it should have never been removed, but it should be checked while still installed in the air barrel to ensure the arms are not bent and the feet are still parallel) and then install the diaphragm and purge covers.
3. Adjust the orifice until the reg just stops freeflowing and then turn it in another 30 degrees (from 12 o'clock to 1 o'clock).
4. Check the adjustment and lever height. Ideally, if the spring is pressure is still correct, you will have a reg that delivers an inhalation effort within spec and that has a lever height such that a slight depression of the purge initiates air flow.

Assuming the lever is compatible with the poppet and those parts as well as the orifice are in good condition - if the inhalation effort is still too high, it reflects an excessively stiff spring and the solution here is a different spring.

The solution is NOT bending the lever or trying some other kluge of a fix to correct the "problem".

----

My concern here is simple - if you screw up the lever (or if it is poorly fitted/ not compatible with the poppet) it can jump over the poppet and cause the reg to fail closed. That is a very serious and potentially deadly failure.

As such, all the lever height discussion is well intended but potentially dangerous when people start trying to hit a target height with a disassembled reg in a single adjustment system where proper component relationships and spring pressure in the assembled reg are the real keys to proper lever height and successful adjustment.

-----

Another issue here is that some of the 109s out there are now 40 years old and some of them (including some far younger than that) have been used hard and are no longer going to perform the way they should. Those 109s often have critical components that need to be retired, and in some cases the cases are worn to the point that the reg needs to be retuired. When I hear about one that won't perform, it occurs to me that there is a reason for that, and that absent proper replacement parts and a degree of expertise to diagnose and fix the situation correctly , the reg needs to be retired from service.
 
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