R109 Sealing Issue

[jacked_72]

I picked up a R109 from a local shop that was going out of business. The reg, which has not been converted to a balance adjustable, was supposedly serviced by a local tech prior to the sale. I have some reservations about the tech's work since the octo that came with the set-up was adjusted so poorly that the purge button did not engage the lever. Anyway, If I put the R109 in a bucket of water under pressure, I see big bubble about every second coming from the mouth piece. I've adjusted the knob all the way in and it it still bubbles. I adjusted the orifice and it still leaks. I figure it either has to be a bad seat (which I think is unlikely because it seems that at some point it would seal even with a cut in the seat) the orifice or the oring on the orifice. I'm leaning toward the oring being the problem. What do you think? Also, what is the preferred method for removing the orifice from the chamber? This is a plastic orifice and I don't want to damage it.

Thanks.

 

[redacted]

Have you disassembled it enough to tell whether it has the upgraded duro poppet with replaceable seat or the older one piece seat/poppet. The seat on the older poppets could be degraded enough that it just will not seal. In any case, disassembly and inspection is appropriate.

The poppet screws out from the hose connection. I use a rubber eraser to carefully push the poppet out after it has cleared the threads. You are correct that a damaged knife edge or a failed o-ring on the orifice could be the problem.

EDIT: After rereading your post, I am a bit concerned that you are seeing "big bubbles every few seconds" rather than a steady stream of smaller bubbles that would tend to be caused by any of the defects discussed. The big bubbles could be a function of the orientation of the 109 in the water but it is also what you would see if the IP on your 1st stage is not stable. So, check out that 1st stage before you do anything too drastic with the 2nd which may well be working exactly as it should.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with your general assessment mostly becasue the only things that can leak are the seat/orifice interface and the orifice o-ring.

Howver, if it had a metal orifice I would immedaitely suspect an old, dried (most likely red colored) orifice o-ring. But being plastic, the o-ring just won't be that old.

As awap suggests, trouble shooting any second stage problem needs to begin at the first stage by checking the IP for proper swing and stability. If that looks good, then remove the poppet and orifice and inspect the seat orifice and o-ring sealing the orifice.

 

[aquaregia]

I had the exact same symptoms so I replaced the orifice and seat which fixed the problem. Had previously tried replacing the seat to no avail. I looked at the orifice under a scope and decided that I saw scratches, but I was kinda looking for them, so who knows.

As a disclaimer, I don't know a toss about this compared to any of the posters above (and probably the future ones below).

 

[jacked_72]

It turned out to be a red o-ring on the orifice that was semi hard and dried out. The reg was supposedly serviced in July, 2010. Crackerjack service.

Anyway, the thing does not leak, but I don't like the way it breathes. The IP off of the first stage is about 125 psi. When I breath on the R109, I can feel having to "pull" or "implode" the diaphragm before the lever engages the poppet and allows a breath. It sort of causes a delay or hesitation with each breath. (The Dacor Pacer XL reg used as an octo by contrast has none of this hesitation and breathes normally, in fact, very well.) I don't have any experience with an R109, but from the way people rave about them, I can't believe that this is the way it is supposed to breathe. Its almost like there is too much diaphragm and that some of it has to be retracted before engaging the lever. Does that make any sense? Any thoughts?

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

It turned out to be a red o-ring on the orifice that was semi hard and dried out. The reg was supposedly serviced in July, 2010. Crackerjack service.

Anyway, the thing does not leak, but I don't like the way it breathes. The IP off of the first stage is about 125 psi. When I breath on the R109, I can feel having to "pull" or "implode" the diaphragm before the lever engages the poppet and allows a breath. It sort of causes a delay or hesitation with each breath. (The Dacor Pacer XL reg used as an octo by contrast has none of this hesitation and breathes normally, in fact, very well.) I don't have any experience with an R109, but from the way people rave about them, I can't believe that this is the way it is supposed to breathe. Its almost like there is too much diaphragm and that some of it has to be retracted before engaging the lever. Does that make any sense? Any thoughts?

A delay before the flow of air begins sounds like a lever height adjustment is in order (at least as a start).

An easy test would be to pull the hose off, use a screwdriver to turn the orifce counter-clockwise about 1/4 turn (hold the purge button down so that the soft seat is pulled away from the orifice whenever adjusting the orifice), reconnect the hose and test. I'd actually keep doing this until I got the 2nd to leak slightly (with the 109's adjuster knob all the way out at the easiest setting). An inline adjusting tool makes this a snap, but even without you should be able to fiddle with it a little and get the lever height set correctly with just a few "hose off / adjust / hose on / test" sessions.

If the lever height is ok, then further "diagnostic testing" is in order. Hang in there, its a great reg, you'll get it sorted out.

Best wishes.

 

[halocline]

I picked up a R109 from a local shop that was going out of business. The reg, which has not been converted to a balance adjustable, was supposedly serviced by a local tech prior to the sale. I have some reservations about the tech's work...... This is a plastic orifice and I don't want to damage it.

Thanks.

If the tech who recently serviced it is incompetent, there are a number of things that could be wrong. There were a couple of threads a while back about techs putting the balanced poppet in but still using the old heavy spring and other dumbass maneuvers. Why is there a plastic orifice?...to me that's a crime on an all-metal reg. If you know the tech, you could politely ask him for the old metal orifice; I'd be fairly confident that it could be brought back to life if there's any problem with it.

I suspect there's a current poppet and new seat in it if it was recently serviced. There might be some weirdness between the new poppet and the old lever; there was a great thread about that on this forum a while back, with good photos of all the different SP levers. That's worth looking for.

I would agree with awap and DA that the IP might be suspect in the bubble-per-second issue. Actually, sometimes there's a problem with a leaky balance chamber in the first stage that allows HP air to leak in, causing a slow IP rise until the reg "burps" a little air and then the cycle starts over. Does that sound like a possibility? Is it a diaphragm 1st stage?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The plastic orifices never had the red o-rings. They come from different eras. It looks like the tech used an old o-ring. It was probably new old stock but I probably have a 100 NOS red o-rings I could sell you, all dried beyond the point I'd want to use them.

As noted above, if there is hesitation and hard breathing I suspect the orifice is screwed in too far. The R109 is a single adjustment design where the orifice seating depth controls the lever height. It's a ery good design, but it requires the spring, poppet, orifice and lever specs to be spot on to get max performance and proper lever height. It's normally not an issue but if you adjust the orifice inward excessively to compensate for a leaking seat, you end up with a lever that is too low and a restricted working range for the valve in addition to excessively high cracking effort.

An easy way to test for this is to depress the purge. If it goes in more than about an 1/8th of an inch before initating gas flow, it's a problem. From what you describe I'm betting you have a 1/4" of play or more.

Another good possibility is the lever itself. Some of the really old levers (late 1960's) had wider tabs and they bind with the current poppets. It's hard to tell if that is the case unless you are familiar with how wide the lever tabs should be. I may have some pictures somewhere that I could post again.

 

[jacked_72]

I've done some digging into past threads and found this picture of the levers that had been used. ScubaBoard Gallery - 3_levers Unfortunately, mine is on the far right, which is the oldest lever and the one that does not work well with the new poppet. (The poppet is the new duro poppet and this has not been converted to a BA.) I think I've got the orifice adjusted properly as I screwed it in until it was barely free flowing and then screwed it in fractions of a turn until it stopped. I've got another R109 that I haven't done anything with yet because I needed to get the new style poppet. I'll take a look at the lever in that reg and see if it makes a difference. There is no doubt that the overhaul was not done well. The seat in the primary, a MK5 is red. That means its not a Scubapro or Trident seat. I have no idea where it might have come from.

Jim

 

[redacted]

I've done some digging into past threads and found this picture of the levers that had been used. ScubaBoard Gallery - 3_levers Unfortunately, mine is on the far right, which is the oldest lever and the one that does not work well with the new poppet. (The poppet is the new duro poppet and this has not been converted to a BA.) I think I've got the orifice adjusted properly as I screwed it in until it was barely free flowing and then screwed it in fractions of a turn until it stopped. I've got another R109 that I haven't done anything with yet because I needed to get the new style poppet. I'll take a look at the lever in that reg and see if it makes a difference. There is no doubt that the overhaul was not done well. The seat in the primary, a MK5 is red. That means its not a Scubapro or Trident seat. I have no idea where it might have come from.

Jim

I have had levers that would not work well in one particular 109 but worked fine in another. so with two 109s, you might get lucky (if the adjustment did not fix the problem). I have seen the red HP seats before. They may come from TUSA. There are a number of BP first manufacturers that use the same seat design and they can be interchanged with no problem.