Question for any lawyers

[Don Burke]

I do understand what you are saying. I just feel that you are on your own untill you pay somebody to take you out on their boat at that time they are making money on your life and if they want to make money on you then they should be responsible for you. And if in doing so for go all standards then they should be sued. Being a guide comes with responsibility that some may feel is to much. And at that point should find another job.

I have trouble with the concept that I can take people out on a boat, tell them that there is some danger involved, and when they blow off all the training they told me they have and kill themselves, I am liable.

I understand that I should be in deep trouble if I leave some divers behind or chop someone up with the screw. I understand I should have proper equipment on board. I do not understand why I should become the scuba police and enforce standards of dive agencies that have no force of law. I do not understand why a divemaster is expected to babysit divers that are not willing to listen and then be sued when they hurt themselves through stupidity.

The waivers have a purpose. I do not expect one to protect someone who exhibits gross negligence, which is fine by me.

 

[DandyDon]

I have trouble with the concept that I can take people out on a boat, tell them that there is some danger involved, and when they blow off all the training they told me they have and kill themselves, I am liable.

Unfortunate side effect of the right to a day in court. But, it does help keep the goofus operators out of the way.

Man, I wouldn't want to own the dive shop anyway. If I was going to sue someone, make it worth the attack. Coca-Cola pays well.

 

[MikeFerrara]

First of all there is no 60 ft limit for an OW diver, at least with most agencies. PADI for example lists 60 ft as a recommended maximum depth for a novice until they gain more training or experience.

I guess I can't even pretend to be able to predict what will happen in court but a DM is not a mommy. A certified diver is qualified to independantly plan and conduct dives within their training and trained not to dives beyond their training and experience. A resort DM is just a guide to help you find the cool stuff. Any one who thinks they can or will some how keep you safe had better re-evaluate. Only you can breath for you and only you can swim for you.

 

[Dave in PA]

The first responsibility a potential customer has is to become an informed consumer. IE: Where is this trip diving today? What is the depth? Is there a back up location? What is the depth? I am a new diver this year, but I have surpassed the total dives of a coworker who has been certified for 4 years. One of the things that was taught in both my OW and AOW classes was to become familiar with the dive site during the planning stage. If a planned dive was beyond their abilities, the diver should not have even booked it to begin with. I do realize we are talking in hypotheticals, btw.

The liability release would have to be gone over to see what exclusions exist, as well as the charter sold. From what I have seen, some operators are only providing you a ride out and back to and from a specific location.

I would have to say that in my opinion (i am not a lawyer) the diver in the hypothetical question would be SOL in court if I was in the jury box. Diving is a sport that has risks, just like riding a motorcycle. What the certification agencies do are try to teach ways to minimize and mitigate those risks. If an individual chooses to flaunt those risks, they are responsible for their own actions, alone.

 

[rachelscott51]

"It depends" is the best legal answer I can give. You would need to look at the liability release or exculpatory clause, and the law in that area. In the U.S., the states are very diverse on this area law. Your hypothetical is just that, without further information. I have yet to handle a scuba case, but under the right circumstances, I'm sure you could successfully sue a dive operator for negligence. They should not be responsible for everything, but they should still be responsible!

 

[wolf eel]

[I have trouble with the concept that I can take people out on a boat, tell them that there is some danger involved, and when they blow off all the training they told me they have and kill themselves, I am liable.]

You are right me too. But the guy we are talking about did not blow off anything. Had stressed out because he had lost it at a depth that he was no longer comfortable with. He near or did panic trying to get the DM'S help and that still did not happen.
So the DM failed the diver. Also in this hypo it does not seem a dive profile was talked about. Anybody who blows off their training gets what they deserve.

[I do not understand why I should become the scuba police and enforce standards of dive agencies that have no force of law. I do not understand why a divemaster is expected to babysit divers that are not willing to listen and then be sued when they hurt themselves through stupidity.]

Nobody is asking you to but not to have any care over your clients is well really dumb. We would have soooo many laws that nobody would be diving at all.

[The waivers have a purpose. I do not expect one to protect someone who exhibits gross negligence, which is fine by me.]

Negligents to what ? Your not going be a scuba cop where there is no real law. Right so how can there be any fault ever why bother taking a course if it has no merit. The point is if we do not have a system that prevents others from harming others just to make a buck then we would all be SOL. The diver in this case was not the issue. You and others are right there is no depth as to say but a personial one that if you are a client and told all is good when in deed the DM is not taking care of you then where does the responsibility lie ?You only went to that depth because of the DM and the faith you had. A lot of companies do not have guides because that way they are only responsibal to you on the boat not after your head goes under thats up to you.
Cheers
Derek

 

[Don Burke]

Negligents to what ? Your not going be a scuba cop where there is no real law. Right so how can there be any fault ever why bother taking a course if it has no merit. The point is if we do not have a system that prevents others from harming others just to make a buck then we would all be SOL. The diver in this case was not the issue. You and others are right there is no depth as to say but a personial one that if you are a client and told all is good when in deed the DM is not taking care of you then where does the responsibility lie ?You only went to that depth because of the DM and the faith you had. A lot of companies do not have guides because that way they are only responsibal to you on the boat not after your head goes under thats up to you.
Cheers
Derek

I have only a rough idea of what you are trying to say here. Please clean this up so I can figure out what you mean.

This is the scenario that started this thread:

The divemaster leads the group, the diver is paired with another diver. These two divers trail behind, as the divemaster leads the group to 100 feet. The OW diver sees his buddy run low on air and ascend. The OW diver, feeling the effects of narcosis, can't get the divemaster's attention, swims too fast and get's overexerted, and panics - tossing his regulator and bolting for the surface. He embolizes and is permanently injured.

What part of this would be the fault of a divemaster?

 

[wolf eel]

[What part of this would be the fault of a divemaster?]

I admit I lost it a bit I was in a huge hurry sorry.

It seemed that you are not interested in negligence of any kind in your post then at the very end you say a waiver is a good thing for gross negligence. For what ?
The way you put your post you should never be held accountable to anybody for any thing that goes on.

In the time you would run out of air I would know. Sorry but I am one of those who ask all the time. I know not all do. But I do. I pay attention to what is going on. All the time. When I am guiding divers I never ever get to dive I am paying way to much attention to the other people. In the event of diress I have now been able to be with that person every time and before you get to 500psi we are all ready on the way back. Every time I do a dive it will be this way. Guiding is about making money not about a pleasure dive. As a guide you in my eyes become the person in control.
Thats it.
Cheers
Derek

 

[Don Burke]

It seemed that you are not interested in negligence of any kind in your post

If such a statement is there, quote it. You will find that it does not exist.

then at the very end you say a waiver is a good thing for gross negligence.

That is not even close to what I said.

For what ?

How about leaving someone, running over someone, giving someone bad gas, or something like that?

The way you put your post you should never be held accountable to anybody for any thing that goes on.

This is pure fiction. Find where I said that.

In the time you would run out of air I would know.

You would know about a diver behind you running out of air on a descent? I doubt that.

Sorry but I am one of those who ask all the time. I know not all do. But I do. I pay attention to what is going on.

Based on your powers of observation displayed in this thread, I question your ability to observe much of anything.

All the time. When I am guiding divers I never ever get to dive I am paying way to much attention to the other people. In the event of diress I have now been able to be with that person every time and before you get to 500psi we are all ready on the way back.

Take another look at the scenario given.

Every time I do a dive it will be this way. Guiding is about making money not about a pleasure dive. As a guide you in my eyes become the person in control.

I have never had a bunch of divers like that. They always want to wander off and do their own thing. Personally, if you were such a pain in the butt on a dive I was on, I would thumb the dive and dive with some other outfit.

Thats it.

I doubt it.

I expect reasonable responsibility from a captain and crew and reasonable responsibility from a diver. You seem to be a babysitter.

 

[wolf eel]

[You would know about a diver behind you running out of air on a descent?]

OK where does it say anything about decent and out of air ?

[I doubt that.Based on your powers of observation displayed in this thread, I question your ability to observe much of anything.]

Really read your post again.

[Take another look at the scenario given.I have never had a bunch of divers like that. They always want to wander off and do their own thing. Personally, if you were such a pain in the butt on a dive I was on, I would thumb the dive and dive with some other outfit.I doubt it].

Why you do not like to get your moneys worth ? And you would not be the one that would be having trouble but by the ******* way of getting your point accross you may be the next Osborne I think was his name rest his soul.

I think the only one I would have to babysit would be you on a dive with your attitude people would follow like sheep and end up in a load of ****. You took everything out of context just to be an ***.
Cheers
Derek