Question for any lawyers

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[Burke I have trouble with the concept that I can take people out on a boat, tell them that there is some danger involved, and when they blow off all the training they told me they have and kill themselves, I am liable.]
This to me seems like you do not like negligents. But because people freak at depth is not blowing away training at all. But you may have been able to see trouble before it happens is the idea.

[I do not understand why I should become the scuba police and enforce standards of dive agencies that have no force of law. I do not understand why a divemaster is expected to babysit divers that are not willing to listen and then be sued when they hurt themselves through stupidity.]
Where in the first thread did any of this happen ?
[The waivers have a purpose. I do not expect one to protect someone who exhibits gross negligence, which is fine by me.]
What is gross negligents ? Not paying attention to the client is a start. Putting a diver into water he may not be comfortable or to depth that exceed his ability. Remember part of the first thread was about peer pressure and NOT being told everything NOT having it explained properly.

The point is that in the first thread one of the questions was if he had not been told and was already on the boat and was or had not dove deep at all. As for being there too bad for you. I am and [YOU] are the first to complain as you have blowen this out of context so you could be an ***.
As your profile says in the occupation part you are a grumpy old man. We agree.

Derek
 
Seeing that I didn't want to start a new thread and this stays somewhat on topic...

I guess that one of my points eariler in the thread is a little more worthy of discussion. I see so many situations where people talk about legal implications and responsibilities. In my mind, legal standards are and should be less stringent than moral standards.

It is easy to cover your hind end legally in the respect that everything is spelled out. If the paperwork is signed and there is no overt negilence, you should be covered legally.

Sometimes, there are situations where although the paperwork is signed that things are not quite right. The Doria situation that referred was the most overt example of this. The legal decision was correct in my view. The gentleman lied on his paperwork. That didn't help the reputation of the other key players like the charter captain or dive instructor, however. We should not be so inclined to think of only the legal issues that we don't investigate our warning bells further.

If someone looks like an accident waiting to happen, maybe we are covered legally to let them do the dive with no other concerns. Yes, their safety is their responsibility. It won't make us feel any better emotionally if that accident comes to pass and nobody does anything to prevent it! Every once in while, I feel that it is best to say about things like this...

"Not on my watch!" as I have not had to do a body recovery or wait on a Coast Guard chopper for an evac. I don't want to start now.
 
opiniongirl:
In light of some recent posts, just wondering if any lawyers could shed some light on liability here and what could potentially happen in court? Anyone?


An OW diver pays an operator to go out on a dive trip. The trip includes a divemaster guide. The diver signs a liability agreement, and the operator asks a few questions but does not check for certification card.

The divemaster leads the group, the diver is paired with another diver. These two divers trail behind, as the divemaster leads the group to 100 feet. The OW diver sees his buddy run low on air and ascend. The OW diver, feeling the effects of narcosis, can't get the divemaster's attention, swims too fast and get's overexerted, and panics - tossing his regulator and bolting for the surface. He embolizes and is permanently injured.


Considering that the OW diver was only certified to dive to 60feet, would the operation be liable? Even with a liability agreement? How about the divemaster?



What if same diver informed the Divemaster of his depth limit, and the divemaster told him it would be fine as he would be guiding? What would be your argument to the counter that the diver is certified?



What would be the chances for a successful lawsuit?
What would be the damages ($)?


(For those instructors who already know the answer to this - hang on...)

I am a lawyer and a divemaster, but I'm not sure either of those qualifications will help to answer your questions. But here are some comments:

The effectiveness of liability agreements (or waiver/releases) is different in each of the 50 plus jurisdictions in the United States. Because of the differences, your question really can't be answered. The usual issue that comes up is not coercion to sign such agreements (as someone mentioned in a post), but whether such agreements are made "knowingly". That word has a distinct legal definition in each jurisdiction. As pointed out by a recent (I think New Jersey) decision, the waiver is not effective to extinguish the rights of survivors in death cases. If if the agreements/waivers are drafted correctly and executed knowingly, they usually won't cover the active negligence of the waived party. So that, the dive operator sends the diver down with almost no air and the diver dies, the waiver is not going to be much good, no matter what it says. A lot of law and a lot of issues regarding these waivers. Snow skiing has similar issues. On not seeing the cert card, the operator is going to have some problems with a non-diving jury explaining why he doesn't check card levels and restrictions before planning his dives. Divers usually argue about the personal responsibility of the diver who knows his cert limits, but what is the diver supposed to do in your scenario, stop and leave her buddy and divemaster (unseen, I guess) and stay at the limit or surface. What if the diver is checking depth every second anyway and assumes the divemaster is staying in conservative limits. What if the diver isn't reasoning well at depth (narcosis, fear, whatever a new diver may experience) and can't make perfect decisions. That's probably why he's paid to go with an operator and dive with his staff.

As the guy's lawyer, I'm going to argue that the DM isn't watching his depth and isn't watching his divers, that he didn't get a good enough idea of the competency and restrictions of his divers and that there was know plan. The diver has presumably paid for this kind of consideration. He hasn't paid just for the boat ride and to be dumped in the water. The waiver, if it had any validity, is getting weaker and weaker.

In my jurisdiction, the DM would be defending himself as an individual and as an agent of the dive operator. The dive operator would be separately liable. Remember, being liable doesn't mean you can't defend yourself- the waiver, the contributory negligence of the diver who is bringing the claim, etc. Liability only means a legally cognizable claim can be made against you. Ultimately, the liability is found by the fact finder (can be either a jury or a judge, depending).

The divemaster is hired/used for a reason. Instructors and/or divemasters traditionally argue their professional status at every opportunity, but then when something happens, responsibility seems to always get loaded back on the diver. If the pro's certification doesn't mean he's got responsibility for making bad decisions, why is the client diver's certification relevant? The diver is relying on the expertise of the pros who held themselves out as pros. That is where the pros are going to find themselves vulnerable (as they should be). Otherwise, pros should advise their clients at the shop or before entering the water that they don't know what they are doing and that they should not be relied on for anything.

These are odd questions as you must know you've given no facts as to the level or extent of injury. Permissable damages vary by jurisdiction. Some states restrict damages to compensatory; some, permit punitive damages. You haven't given enough fact regarding the accident or the injuries for anyone to give you an idea what the value of any claim might be. Juries usually are only given the guidance that they be "fair, just, and reasonable".
 
gregconn:
I am a lawyer and a divemaster, but I'm not sure either of those qualifications will help to answer your questions. But here are some comments:

The effectiveness of liability agreements (or waiver/releases) is different in each of the 50 plus jurisdictions in the United States. Because of the differences, your question really can't be answered.
.

In my jurisdiction, the DM would be defending himself as an individual and as an agent of the dive operator. The dive operator would be separately liable. Ultimately, the liability is found by the fact finder (can be either a jury or a judge, depending).


fact regarding the accident or the injuries for anyone to give you an idea what the value of any claim might be. Juries usually are only given the guidance that they be "fair, just, and reasonable".


Gregconn pretty much summed it up, as with almost any legal action, it all depends on a number of variables. In some states you may have all the waivers in the world, and still incur liability, based on the trier of fact's decision. Sometimes juries base decisions on appearances of the plaintiff(s), not facts. Several years ago in my area a jury awarded damages to the family of a man who was caught breaking into an automobile. The police officers captured his compatriot, and he out ran the officers on foot. After he lost the officers it seems he ran into a wooded patch which contained a storm swollen pond, which was also full of cottonmouth snakes. He went into the pond, it seems, whereupon the disturbed snakes bit the daylights out of him. His body was found several months later. Post mortem results were a little unclear as to drowning, or drowning due to envenomation. There was no wrongdoing on the part of the officers, the jury members reported that they felt bad for the family, and they (the family) deserved some compensation...
 
opiniongirl:
In light of some recent posts, just wondering if any lawyers could shed some light on liability here and what could potentially happen in court? Anyone?

An OW diver pays an operator to go out on a dive trip. The trip includes a divemaster guide. The diver signs a liability agreement, and the operator asks a few questions but does not check for certification card.

The divemaster leads the group, the diver is paired with another diver. These two divers trail behind, as the divemaster leads the group to 100 feet. The OW diver sees his buddy run low on air and ascend. The OW diver, feeling the effects of narcosis, can't get the divemaster's attention, swims too fast and get's overexerted, and panics - tossing his regulator and bolting for the surface. He embolizes and is permanently injured.

Considering that the OW diver was only certified to dive to 60feet, would the operation be liable? Even with a liability agreement? How about the divemaster?

What if same diver informed the Divemaster of his depth limit, and the divemaster told him it would be fine as he would be guiding? What would be your argument to the counter that the diver is certified?

What would be the chances for a successful lawsuit?
What would be the damages ($)?

(For those instructors who already know the answer to this - hang on...)

In order to provide any type of assessment, we would need to see the language in the liability waiver. We would also need to know where the dive took place.

Thanks
 
gregconn:
In my jurisdiction, the DM would be defending himself as an individual and as an agent of the dive operator. The dive operator would be separately liable. Remember, being liable doesn't mean you can't defend yourself- the waiver, the contributory negligence of the diver who is bringing the claim, etc. Liability only means a legally cognizable claim can be made against you. Ultimately, the liability is found by the fact finder (can be either a jury or a judge, depending).
In Florida the dive operator is presumably the deeper pocket, thus it is held vicariously liable, presumably because the DM was acting "within the scope of employment." Punitive damages might be awarded, if there is a finding of gross negligence, or other unconscionable behavior, although in retrospect, I can't remember any case in Florida where even in light of active negligence from either the operator or the DM, the agreement hasn't survived the lawsuit. Guess they're pretty well put together :D

It would appear that if the diver made it emphatically clear to the DM that he/she was not trained, or didn't feel comfortable going beyond 60 fsw, or insisted that the operator and/or the DM reviewed his/her log book and C card, that the DM could be liable (herein lies the gross negligence standard, again, in Florida), but that argument is fallacious. Negligence is nothing more than the failure to do what a person knows, or should know to do, or the failure to not do what the person knows, or should know to do. So in essence, both parties can be negligent; the DM for failing to check or to heed the warnings from the diver, and the diver for doing the infamous "trust me dive." In Florida the doctrine of comparative negligence, premised on the doctrine of contributory negligence (which essentially barred recovery and it's no longer observed), states that any recovery will be reduced by the percentage of negligence beared by plaintiff.

Theoretically, it could be a toss up whether the agreement will hold up. However, as any other piece of paper you are required to sign, it should be read carefully and if there is something with which you don't agree, don't sign it. Once you do, you're likely to be bound by the paper. Most of all, it is incumbent upon all divers to remember that we shouldn't dive beyond our training and experience, regardless of who paid for what and who failed to do what. I much rather deal healthy with an action for breach of contract than permanently injured with an action for negligence.
 

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