Question about pony bottles

[doctormike]

I never asked what is the BEST system.

Got it. Sorry to meander.

Dive safe!

 

[MrChen]

Its funny how each pony thread ends differently.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Just what is that baseline SAC rate? Computers usually don't figure a minute to minute SAC rate, it's usually computed over the course of a dive.

Second, hard swimming probably does not equal the rate that a panicked diver can suck air. If you son panics, he can probably use 3-4 times his normal air rate. You can use even more. We I train at my max breathing rate my SAC is 5 times my normal use (2.5 cu ft/min vs. .5 cu ft/ min).

My my point is that if one pony is depleted, why not have the ability to supply a diver from an Octo? This isn't an either/ or configuration. You can have both a pony and an Octo. Why not be prepared for a wide range of emergencies?

The answer again is that the third second stage is not necessary. If the Pony is depleted and the diver has one primary reg, then the divers can share the single second stage.. you know buddy breathing... an essential skill in my book, but not so common any more.

The Op needs to balance the extra complexity of the third reg with the probability that, his son's main tank will fail, his son's pony will fail or be consumed, then his own pony volume will be consumed and then he would be presented with the option of sharing a single second stage. now what is the probabilty of all those three failures occurring simultaneously? Also, even if that does happen, he COULD just breath a little from a standard inflator if he wanted to or understood how.

My advice is to learn to buddy breath, learn to breath from a standard inflator and then avoid the third second stage. Just my opinion, but the probability that you will need 3 second stages is less than the chance that it's presence will cause you problems.

Also, I asked for you to provide a photo of a back mounted pony on the left side with the hose over the left shoulder using a standard regulator. You did not do that. you provide a photo of the pony with an unusual second stage.. one that can be run from left or right... while most ALL second stages do NOT have that capability. I was curious how you could be recommending something that seemed so unusual.

---------- Post added May 20th, 2014 at 05:10 PM ----------

No I did not choose a pony based on both bottles. Read the whole post. In the past I've planned to begin ascent when we get to 35 cu ft (obviously that # changes with depth, but that's about the average). That's enough air for 2 divers, one of them being out of air. What I posted was that with one OOA situation we would have 38 cu ft of air in two pony bottles, AND the 35 cu ft of air in the one remaining main. 73 cu ft reserve if we use ponies, whereas in the past dives if there were an OOA situation on one of the mains we would have had only 35 cf remaining. Under an extreme case of simultaneous OOA mains, we would still have the two ponies with 38 cf, whereas without the pony tanks and a doulble OOA, we would have nothing. And the situation that worries me the most, if you go back and read my comment about how my son used to just swim off with out signalling me, when I would look away for just a few seconds and he'd be hightailing it away from me chasing after something, separation. In such a case without a pony, we're SOL. At 80 ft, 19 cu ft of air will get one of us to the surface at 60 fpm to 60 fsw, then 30 fpm from 60 to the surface. In a panic situation it is still enough to ascend 80 ft at 30 fpm with no stops. If we're at 80 ft, we'll be on nitrox 32 to begin with.

Some have suggested that I should be perfecting our buddy skills, not buy new equipment. I have agreed with that. We should be perfecting our buddy skills, and we are. We improved that dramatically from our beginnings. That being said, I don't want to sling the bottle because that's a quite a change from what were used to. Mounting it puts our pony reg exactly where we are already programmed to look for our octo, and it doesn't put any new equipment down in front of us that we're not used to. Later down the road, certainly we may try out side mounting, slinging the pony and what not. But these things require additional learning training, and were already busy with learning and training.

I hope you can understand: I never asked what is the BEST system. What I was asking; Is this better than what we are doing (single tank w/octo)?

As far as the suggestions of primary, octo and pony regulator, that's a consideration. I will likely have that setup on our dive trip this weekend.

I think your questions, your reasoning and your responses to the suggestions in this thread are very valid. You have thought through a bunch of this stuff, you are obviously sharp enough to perform some risk/reward comparisons and decide what is best for you and your son. There was a lot of good advice and also conflicting opinions, just pick the ones that make sense to you and then bet your son's life and your own on your decision.

In all honesty, it sounds like you will get the greatest bang for the buck, by reigning in the kid and demanding that he stays within 10 -12 feet of you at all times- regardless of the visibility. THAT will enhance safety more than anything.

 

[T.C.]

The answer again is that the third second stage is not necessary. If the Pony is depleted and the diver has one primary reg, then
the divers can share the single second stage.. you know buddy breathing... an essential skill in my book, but not so common any more.

This doesn't make sense at all. Diving evolved the Octo to avoid this situation.

What's easier, having an alternate 2nd stage to use or buddy breathing? Which is easier, each diver able to breath from their own regulator, and ascend together, or two divers trying to share a reg as they ascend, when one has already run out of air and likely needs to breath more than just two breaths at a time? As well, when dealing with other divers, you don't know their skill level. They have potentially not practiced the skill in a very long time, and there is the distinct possibility that they have never even been trained on it.

How will you buddy breath with a diver who has never been trained on the technique? You can't teach them a class underwater.
And there is always the possibility that you give them the regulator, and they never give it back. What do you do then?

While buddy breathing is a skill every diver should have in their 'toolkit', it can be avoided by using the octo, thereby avoiding a great deal of additional stress on both the donor and the OOA diver (who is already going to be stresed). It enables simple, easy access to the (most likely) largest gas supply on the dive, the main tank. This is why it has become standard the world over. It just makes sense to have.

Also, I asked for you to provide a photo of a back mounted pony on the left side with the hose over the left shoulder using a standard regulator. You did not do that. you provide a photo of the pony with an unusual second stage.. one that can be run from left or right... while most ALL second stages do NOT have that capability. I was curious how you could be recommending something that seemed so unusual.

No, you're just trying to be argumentative. You know as well as I do what this configuration looks like. I provided exactly what I said I would. If you want a different picture, go find it yourself.

My point is this; anytime a hose comes from the left at the start of the dive should key the diver in that there is a problem. Simple Situational Awareness will solve this problem.

Why do you assume a diver will panic when he is forced to rely on his planned and practiced redundant gas source?

Many folks assume that people panic when they get shot at. Do you panic? Do you assume your peers would panic?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant was that the diver could be panicked from the OOA event, not from having to switch. It may not be him, or his son, but it could be another diver who comes up panicking.

It doesn't even have to be panic; heavy stress will cause anyone to breath faster. Watch someone get angry sometime, they take deep, rapid breaths. If you ever see someone in a life-or-death situation; they will be breathing heavy, even if they're not exerting themselves. It's the body's way of preparing for fight or flight, both of which may require intense, prolonged effort- so the body prepares by increasing the breathing rate to improve oxygenation.

I don't panic when I come under fire, but my stress level does rise . Stress can be good, or it can be bad; it's how you use it. When I'm training, I induce stress with exercise, particularly in marksmanship; so my guys can train when they can't get a steady breath, and are tired and exhausted.

This is why I recommend training with a pony as fast as you can safely suck down the air. You can reasonably assume that the diver you're assisting, whether you, your buddy, or another unknown diver, will be stressed, and breathing far faster than normal.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

This doesn't make sense at all. Diving evolved the Octo to avoid this situation.

What's easier, having an alternate 2nd stage to use or buddy breathing? Which is easier, each diver able to breath from their own regulator, and ascend together, or two divers trying to share a reg as they ascend, when one has already run out of air and likely needs to breath more than just two breaths at a time? As well, when dealing with other divers, you don't know their skill level. They have potentially not practiced the skill in a very long time, and there is the distinct possibility that they have never even been trained on it.

How will you buddy breath with a diver who has never been trained on the technique? You can't teach them a class underwater.
And there is always the possibility that you give them the regulator, and they never give it back. What do you do then?

While buddy breathing is a skill every diver should have in their 'toolkit', it can be avoided by using the octo, thereby avoiding a great deal of additional stress on both the donor and the OOA diver (who is already going to be stresed). It enables simple, easy access to the (most likely) largest gas supply on the dive, the main tank. This is why it has become standard the world over. It just makes sense to have.


No, you're just trying to be argumentative. You know as well as I do what this configuration looks like. I provided exactly what I said I would. If you want a different picture, go find it yourself.

My point is this; anytime a hose comes from the left at the start of the dive should key the diver in that there is a problem. Simple Situational Awareness will solve this problem.



I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant was that the diver could be panicked from the OOA event, not from having to switch. It may not be him, or his son, but it could be another diver who comes up panicking.

It doesn't even have to be panic; heavy stress will cause anyone to breath faster. Watch someone get angry sometime, they take deep, rapid breaths. If you ever see someone in a life-or-death situation; they will be breathing heavy, even if they're not exerting themselves. It's the body's way of preparing for fight or flight, both of which may require intense, prolonged effort- so the body prepares by increasing the breathing rate to improve oxygenation.

I don't panic when I come under fire, but my stress level does rise . Stress can be good, or it can be bad; it's how you use it. When I'm training, I induce stress with exercise, particularly in marksmanship; so my guys can train when they can't get a steady breath, and are tired and exhausted.

This is why I recommend training with a pony as fast as you can safely suck down the air. You can reasonably assume that the diver you're assisting, whether you, your buddy, or another unknown diver, will be stressed, and breathing far faster than normal.

what do you do if a diver steals you second stage... well you MIGHT, if you know how, simply breath from the standard inflator on the way up. I did mention that as a plan D or E.

Also, your advice about running a reg over the left shoulder does not work for 95% of all regulators. I was not being argumentative, I was simply asking you to show me how it works and help us understand how familiar you are with the strategies your recommend.

Lastly, your recommendation for training.. to breath as fast and as hard and as deep as you possibly can to prepare yourself for an emergency?? LOL. I think it might be better to train yourself to breath SLOWLY and deeply and in a very controlled manner as you work through a simulated problem.

 

[T.C.]

what do you do if a diver steals you second stage... well you MIGHT, if you know how, simply breath from the standard inflator on the way up. I did mention that as a plan D or E.

Or...You could use a standard piece of gear to avoid the problem, and not undertake dangerous and ill advised procedures that are not taught or recommended by any training agency.

Also, your advice about running a reg over the left shoulder does not work for 95% of all regulators. I was not being argumentative, I was simply asking you to show me how it works and help us understand how familiar you are with the strategies your recommend.

How does it not work? The pony is mounted on the left side. The regulator is attached to the pony, the pony's hoses are routed either over the left shoulder, if the valve is up, or under the left arm, if the valve is down. Either turn the tank till the hoses face the diver's left, or attach them to the left side of the regulator.

Route the primary tank's regs around the right side like normal. Problem solved. If you breath a regulator that comes from the left, you're on the wrong tank.

Lastly, your recommendation for training.. to breath as fast and as hard and as deep as you possibly can to prepare yourself for an emergency?? LOL. I think it might be better to train yourself to breath SLOWLY and deeply and in a very controlled manner as you work through a simulated problem.

Are you going to train every diver on every boat that you ever encounter on this procedure?
Can you personally guarantee that your buddy will never become stressed and breath faster under that stress?
Without having been in any real emergencies, can any diver guarantee how they will react?

Your plan MAY work for you. But without having experienced it, no one knows how they will react to stress. It's best to prepare and train for the worst-case scenario, not the scenario where everything goes according to plan.


Murphy's Rule of War #42: No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

 

[waterpirate]

I have an Apeks XTX 50 primary and XTX 40 octo. Is there a point your trying to make? You said, "my thoughts on octo's", yet...from what you typed I'm still left wondering...what are your thoughts on octos????

My point is that if you have a " credible octo " not a yellow thingy, you are way ahead of the game allready. You are also way ahead of the game by wanting to have a redundant gas source that is not your buddy/son, or vice vs.

By being a thinking diver and flight oriented, I can save you alot of time and money. If you go through all the possible failures and scenarios youwill end up at manifolded doubles/ or side mount doubles. When I got that same advice, I scoffed. I now dive manifolded doubles exclusively.

Diving is supposed to be fun. Enjoy the ride. Be safe. I hate octos and not having a redundant gas source of equal quality of the second stage I am switcing off.
Eric

 

[AfterDark]

Everyone is different.The few times I’ve been OOA that is really OOA no pony, no octo,( some of us were diving before octos were in vogue), I didn’t panic, I was scared but not panicked.That is the last thing a diver does, panic is usually followed by death. Believing this I refuse to give into that urge, but that’s me.

Using IDs I have two sec. stages both of which are mine, that is neither are intended for anyone else’s use.This works out great when solo diving. When buddy diving with IDs I sling a pony that is NOT for my use but for a buddy’s use to be handed off after he starts using it. When using a single tank solo or buddy diving I sling the pony. Then the pony is both for my use and a buddy’s in an OOA situation. Any of this can change according to the situation and what develops but those are the intended uses for my slung pony. We do what we need to do to surface.
I refuse to continually swap a sec stage to have a octo when buddy diving or buy another regulator just to hang another sec stage on it, neither makes sense to me when I can hand off a pony.

Bubby breathing is a simple skill. We learned in the pool in 1968 after which I never practiced it again.
Sometime during the 1980’s 1985 comes to mind, I made a decision at 110 FSW after conferring with my buddy that we both knew would put me OOA before we surfaced because a deco stop was going to be required, it wasn’t planned which is why I was going to be OOA. That last 5mins at 10’ was done buddy breathing. No panic, no drama, no BS, just seat of your pants diving, that’s the way it was once upon a time in sport of diving

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Or...You could use a standard piece of gear to avoid the problem, and not undertake dangerous and ill advised procedures that are not taught or recommended by any training agency.


How does it not work? The pony is mounted on the left side. The regulator is attached to the pony, the pony's hoses are routed either over the left shoulder, if the valve is up, or under the left arm, if the valve is down. Either turn the tank till the hoses face the diver's left, or attach them to the left side of the regulator.

Route the primary tank's regs around the right side like normal. Problem solved. If you breath a regulator that comes from the left, you're on the wrong tank.


Are you going to train every diver on every boat that you ever encounter on this procedure?
Can you personally guarantee that your buddy will never become stressed and breath faster under that stress?
Without having been in any real emergencies, can any diver guarantee how they will react?

Your plan MAY work for you. But without having experienced it, no one knows how they will react to stress. It's best to prepare and train for the worst-case scenario, not the scenario where everything goes according to plan.


Murphy's Rule of War #42: No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Ill advised, dangerous, not taught.... As for not taught, what agency recommends swimming around in the deep trying to consume our air supply as rapidly as possible to prepare for an emergency? I've not heard of that before.

As for the left side reg, just give me a picture of it.. That is all I ask..

 

[redacted]

My point is that if you have a " credible octo " not a yellow thingy, you are way ahead of the game allready. You are also way ahead of the game by wanting to have a redundant gas source that is not your buddy/son, or vice vs.

By being a thinking diver and flight oriented, I can save you alot of time and money. If you go through all the possible failures and scenarios youwill end up at manifolded doubles/ or side mount doubles. When I got that same advice, I scoffed. I now dive manifolded doubles exclusively.

Diving is supposed to be fun. Enjoy the ride. Be safe. I hate octos and not having a redundant gas source of equal quality of the second stage I am switcing off.
Eric

Once you forgo warm water diving and focus on NE USA wrecks, that makes sense. But if you were enjoying tropical diving, that would be mostly an unnecessary expensive burden.