Question about pony bottles

[bottomrunner]

HELLO EVERY BODY
Have gone through all the posts in this thread
Am a little confused
Correct me if i am wrong
We are just talking about recreational diving here right?
No decompression diving, yes? Where we can do 30 minutes at 80 feet, with no deco.?
Recreational diving, meaning that safety is at the surface.
Where we can drop our weight belt at any time, and safely make it back to the surface.
When was the last time you even come close to draining a 100 Cu.Ft. tank in 80 feet of water, on a non deco. dive?
That being said, I like the idea of an alternate air supply. But I would suggest keeping the pony as a emergency (bail out) source only and keep the octopus on your primary rig. To be used as a buddy supply and as a last resort use the pony bottle. To get back to the surface

Hope this helps

 

[markmud]

That is not what being self reliant, or a buddy is about at all. We are self reliant so we can help ourselves. By being able to help ourselves, we are in a better position to help others.

I would not dive with anyone who told me any tank was theirs, not mine. To me, that is a red flag. It's just a tank of air. Anyone needing air can use anything I have and we'll figure the details out after the stress of the event has passed.

If my recreational buddy was LOA or OOA, we would be heading up anyway.
If I'm buddying with someone who doesn't have redundancy in an overhead environment, I've made the big mistake before we splashed.

I also would not dive a blind tank, unless I were diving vintage, in which case I would have other strategies in place.

Hey DaleC,

I don't have a collectivist attitude as you evidently do. I don't dive to save the world! I dive for fun. I solo dive to avoid dangerous situations (like scary insta-buddies). If a diver is looking for me to save his sorry arse, he chose the wrong person. I am not a trained instructor nor am I a former member of the Teams. Your PADI rescue cert may make you feel good, but trust me, it does not make you a real rescue diver. It is good to know the techniques, but a one weekend cert class does not include the years of training and repetition behind it to do the job correctly, every time, especially when diving with newbie divers.

When the safest person around is myself, I solo dive. I am not a self-reliant diver so that I can be a better buddy! I was always a good buddy because I took my responsibility seriously; I never leave formation because you don't leave your wing-man. Others don't share my tactics; once an SOB buddy leaves formation, you are solo diving. I learned to Solo dive so that I can avoid dangerous situations.

Oh yeah, I don't do overhead environments nor does the OP (as best I can tell) so please avoid couching things as an overhead or staged decompression scenario.

As a former tug boat captain and construction worker, giving a no-bulloney briefing is a great way to get people to pay attention to what you are telling them.

The octo is yours, the pony is mine!!!!The statement stands! "And now, insta-buddy, grab my octo and make sure it works."

We also discuss separation, navigation issues, and my expectation to check their gas consumption regularly. Also, it is fine to swim with the current, but when I give the "boat" signal, one of us will turn towards the boat, the other can remain in formation if they want! It is sometimes called, "thumbing the dive."

Diving a blind tank is what back mounted tank diving is, right? Or, are you using techy jargon for no spg?

What follows is not a response to DaleC:

I have read this thread and some people are relating the OPs question to tech diving protocols. He does not sound like a tech diver to me. The OP does not need 38 cf of pony bottle for himself and another 38 cf for his son--ridiculous.

I have a love-hate relationship with Scuba Board. I enjoy it so much until a person gets judged by a holier-than-thou tech diver who believes tech diving protocols are gospel for us rec divers. I have not dived deeper than 55' in 9 months. And yes, I have been diving (multiple trips to Monterey and multiple trips to the Northern Channel Islands on live-aboards).

Hey OP, your 19 cf tanks are more than enough as long as you stick with recreational diving protocols. If you get into a situation that requires more gas to save yourself, and/or your buddy, you probably are not recreational diving! Three redundant systems are not going to fail you leaving one 19 cf tank for both you and your buddy.

Sorry about the rant, and no DaleC, it is not directed entirely at you!

markm

 

[leadduck]

HELLO EVERY BODY
Have gone through all the posts in this thread
Am a little confused
Correct me if i am wrong
We are just talking about recreational diving here right?
No decompression diving, yes? Where we can do 30 minutes at 80 feet, with no deco.?
Recreational diving, meaning that safety is at the surface.
Where we can drop our weight belt at any time, and safely make it back to the surface.

I think that's the point often missed in the pony bottle discussions: in most recreational dives, a sudden out-of-air situation is not deadly dangerous. You can make a zero air, controlled swimming emergency ascent. It may be very inconvenient, frightening, giving you light DCS, but it's not deadly. That means, a pony bottle or SpareAir is only for convenience and gives a feeling of safety to some, but it is not a life-saving device. Most divers seem to think that this added convenience (that you will receive only in a very rare sudden total OOA situation with lost buddy) is not worth its cost and the permanent inconvenience of carrying it with you all the time.
It's a totally different situation in deeper dives or with heavy deco.

 

[Subcooled]

Our max depth is about 80 ft

Which means that you could swim to the surface with no air. If you run out of gas, then relax and swim to the surface. During that trip the surrounding pressure would drop and your tank would thus develop an overpressure and become breathable again, further easening the trip to the surface. A pony tank delivering a few breaths would make this short swim a pure joy. I would recommend a few AIDA freediving classes for you.

 

[EHowe]

This thread is a perfect example of why I now dive with a pony 75% of the time. Every one has a different opinion of how things should go in a given situation. Gear configurations are all over the place. (I dive double hose). Bottom line is, I am my own best buddy. I know my gear, I know me. If something goes wrong I have another scuba right in front of me to buy me some time to either fix my situation, or get me to the unlimited air supply at the surface. It's not that hard. As for how you configure your set up that's up to you, no matter what you decide your still better off with redundant scuba than without. Back mounting a 19 with 2nd stage in the same place as I would usually keep my octo seemed most logical to me, But I found that I tended to roll to that side. I tried to balance it out playing with weights, but could never get it just right. I thought slinging would get in the way but decided to try it out. I built a simple sling set up with stuff from the hardware store for about $10.00. I use an old USD conshelf 1st stage with a scubapro R109 adjustable 2nd on a standard 40 in octo hose. Gauge is a small brass n glass on a 6in. hp hose. I keep it all bungeed together for a nice compact package that is easy to deploy. Sling is clipped to D rings on my right hip and right shoulder strap where my octo would usually hang. I found that it is not in the way, and does not affect my buoyancy or balance. I advise my buddy predive that if they should need it during the dive, I will hand them the 2nd stage then unclip pony and give them the whole thing. They can keep it until they surface or the rest of their lives. Witch ever comes first. I don't keep another octo on my primary IMHO that's overkill, plus I clip it in the same place as my sling. If I decide to dive without the pony, It takes about 2 minutes to switch the 2nd stage from my pony to my primary reg.

 

[DaleC]

Mark, you presume too much.

I have never taken a rescue diver course, I am not a tech diver, and am probably one of the more non conformist divers around, so save the rant for someone else.

I do however, grasp the basic concepts of both solo and buddy diving and recognize that designating a pony as "off limits" to others is an indication that the user has either a social or mechanical misunderstanding of its role. Your statement "If a diver is looking for me to save his sorry arse, he chose the wrong person" says it all. As I said, if someone expressed that attitude during a pre dive briefing, I'd choose a different partner.

There are times when rendering aid may not be suitable, primarily when it puts your own life at risk (technical divers occasional face this issue). However, that should not be what we are talking about here. If offering a pony reg to someone else puts your life at risk, you need to rethink your configuration.

A blind tank is a tank that you cannot read the contents of, and is a general term. I know some people do use ponies without readable SPG's (when diving) but I do not. I also do not believe in backmounting ponies (for several reasons). But those are personal choices and I understand that other people have different opinions on that which I respect because, those choices do not impact me.

Other choices, like denying an airsource to someone or not extending reasonable aid does impact me and that is where I draw the line with regards to who I will dive with. Solo is a "I'll take care of myself" not a "I won't take care of you" mentality. That's just anti social.

This is advanced diving so I am being a little more succinct.

 

[Kharon]

I would not dive with anyone who told me any tank was theirs, not mine. To me, that is a red flag. It's just a tank of air. Anyone needing air can use anything I have and we'll figure the details out after the stress of the event has passed.

I sure wouldn't dive with you. No! you can't use (grab) anything I have. It's my equipment and my life! I will share with you - but I will decide how and what. That will be discussed clearly and completely before splashing. I have a protocol that I have decided on and developed over time based on my kit. Deviation from that protocol endangers my life. In a choice between my life and yours - guess what - you lose. If you are in trouble, it's not because I have neglected or abused your equipment, nor done anything stupid, nor neglected to keep track of air. All on you. So if you expect help then you damn well better have been listening on shore.

 

[DaleC]

I don't know what kind of diving you do but it really isn't that dramatic to me. What could you possibly have on a recreation dive that would endanger your life by losing? A pony reg? Really? Don't you have back gas for that short swim to the surface? What else, a cutting tool? I always carry two because that is one of the few things most likely to be dropped by ME under stress. A spare mask? Will I die between the time you take it and we surface? My snorkel, my whistle, my SMB??? You could even take one of my fins because I can swim with the other just fine.

So, what is that one thing on a recreational dive that would immediately endanger your life, considering the other persons life actually is in real danger?

People who make a big deal out of mine and yours in recreational diving are far too attached to equipment to solve their problems IMO. If there is a problem buddy diving in the recreational setting the dive should be called. What do we really need to surface safely? I don't even need gauges as I can count to 180 real slow if I have to while watching the ripples.

I will donate anything to a buddy because I know I can survive and would not like to spend the rest of my life thinking I let someone else die because I was afraid and selfish. That's what you get when you buddy with me. Not a bad deal when you think of it.

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I was thinking about how refusing to allow a diver to use an airsource also lies outside the paradigm created by open water dive training. I have never seen a manual, or heard instruction suggest, that some airsources are off limits in a LOA/OOA situation. Overwhelmingly, divers are conditioned to presume air is a shared resource in an emergent situation. This even goes back to buddy breathing techniques of the doublehose era.
So, to buddy with someone and tell them some air is off limits means you are the one stepping outside the training most divers receive, and the onus is on you to ensure they can adjust to your messing with the SOP - not the other way around.

 

[Kharon]

... IMO. ...

Exactly! Since you have no idea what my protocol involves you're blowing smoke out your a$$.

 

[DaleC]

I only know what you post. So if you make a general statement that sounds off, who's fault is that.
I was also stating what I do, or believe, and asking about you, because my experience and yours seem to be different in this regard.

This is an internet forum. We discuss ideas here. The current idea being whether one carries some gas on a rec dive they will not share, even in an acute situation. I've stated my opinion about this idea and given reasons. Either you agree or disagree. If you disagree you may provide your reasons, or not. That's how a discussion board works.

Adverse events rarely unfold as predictably as they do during drills and people sometimes react in odd ways. I accept that as part of the reality of diving with others. That is why I don't care if they take my primary, octo or pony reg. I may prefer to donate one over the other, but we can sort that out after they've taken a couple of breaths and calmed down.

I know pony bottle use. I know the ups and downs of different mounting options, the benefits of having them on and off, the volume they should be and how much reserve gas I should have on my back. That is why I call BS to this idea that there is something sacred about their use or something dangerous about sharing them.

If I am at risk of dying because someone grabs my pony reg - I have the problem, not them. I either lack confidence to adapt, skill to cope, or have a poor equipment configuration. It is expected in the recreational setting that someone afraid of drowning might go for any reg so if I configure myself in such a way that is dangerous who's really not paying attention to conditions? Situational awareness. If my redress is that I get to call the shots in an event or I'm taking my ball and going home, who's the poor partner?