Question about pony bottles

[doctormike]

Given this discussion is in the ADVANCED diver discussion board It really worries me that octo/pony seems to be the only two options offered. Sharing air is a clear third choice.

So, in the era where most people have a backup regulator (first and second stage if diving doubles, second stage only if diving single tank), sharing air would be done when diver A is out of gas, and diver B's backup regulator has failed? Unusual for both of those things to happen simultaneously.

Or are you suggesting that sharing air be drilled to accommodate people who do not wish to carry a backup regulator? Because if you are alone (by choice or by buddy separation), a backup regulator is a good thing to have, IMHO.

While it may be a third choice, I think that it's a pretty poor one....

 

[DaleC]

Just to refresh your memory Kharon:

I was responding to Markmud's comments when you posted this in direct response to what I said (Post 127):

I sure wouldn't dive with you. No! you can't use (grab) anything I have. It's my equipment and my life! I will share with you - but I will decide how and what. That will be discussed clearly and completely before splashing. I have a protocol that I have decided on and developed over time based on my kit. Deviation from that protocol endangers my life. In a choice between my life and yours - guess what - you lose. If you are in trouble, it's not because I have neglected or abused your equipment, nor done anything stupid, nor neglected to keep track of air. All on you. So if you expect help then you damn well better have been listening on shore.

So, who started what? The only nonsense I see is you feel free to criticize someone but don't want to defend that criticism.

Again, if you want to explain what you are using that will cause your demise by donating a pony reg on a recreational dive I'm all ears.

Also, I challenge this idea you have that an insta buddy has to follow your procedures or they're SOL. Most (all?) modern divers are trained to respond in a certain standard way to situations. That should be the default position in an unknown partner scenario. If you have developed some sort of specific strategy that deviates from that norm the onus is on you to ensure the partner is trained and competent to follow that protocol, not the other way around. Saying it once on a boat and splashing may, or may not, be enough re-enforcement. If you consequently withhold help because of poor performance it is you who should be avoided as a potential liability, not them.

This does not mean that variation cannot occur. Carrying a pony is in it's self a variation from OW training, which is where this tangent started. If you deviate from the norm by using a pony, and buddy dive, you should expect others to react from their training perspective, not yours. This means accepting that they may go for the pony reg in an emergent situation.

 

[Frosty]

So, in the era where most people have a backup regulator (first and second stage if diving doubles, second stage only if diving single tank), sharing air would be done when diver A is out of gas, and diver B's backup regulator has failed? Unusual for both of those things to happen simultaneously.

Or are you suggesting that sharing air be drilled to accommodate people who do not wish to carry a backup regulator? Because if you are alone (by choice or by buddy separation), a backup regulator is a good thing to have, IMHO.

While it may be a third choice, I think that it's a pretty poor one....

must be i;m showing my age.

 

[T.C.]

Given this discussion is in the ADVANCED diver discussion board It really worries me that octo/pony seems to be the only two options offered. Sharing air is a clear third choice.
That it seems noone raised that point a lot earlier in an advanced diver forum is a genuine concern.

I think we raised the point that an Octo is cheap, very effective, and much easier than buddy-breathing many pages ago.

I read the "PADI" part and since the only skills training for PADI stops after Rescue, that's why I qualified it with "basic open water". All the OW classes (BOW and AOW) are geared at entry level divers. What we need is a real Advanced Diver course or Master Diver course where skills like buddy-breathing, which are good to know and can be useful in certain situations, are still taught.

To continue the analogy, learning to load a muzzleloader is still a skill with applications in certain areas, like hunting.

 

[Kharon]

Again, if you want to explain what you are using that will cause your demise by donating a pony reg on a recreational dive I'm all ears.

Once again you are making unfounded assumptions. I actually want them to take the pony reg (stored in the exact same place that a normal octo would be). Then I will unclip and hand them the pony and we can ascend without being tethered together. Which, if the OOA diver panics and makes an uncontrolled ascent could very well endanger my safety if tied together by a hose.

Also, I challenge this idea you have that an insta buddy has to follow your procedures or they're SOL.

Since I have a very short reg hose on my primary we would both be SOL if they don't use the pony reg and instead rip the primary from my mouth. Then neither of us has air. If you suggest that I should dive with a longer hose just so on the few occasions I do dive with another and in the very rare case their equipment fails - well - simply not going to happen.

The pony is set up so the reg is exactly where an octo would be expected and the entire rig is bright yellow. All they have to do is pull the reg from it's "standard" position, purge, and breathe. Just as I & the rest of my class was taught by the LDS owner/instructor. It's something we practice before splashing.

Most (all?) modern divers are trained to respond in a certain standard way to situations.

Seriously? If you really believe that I have a bridge to sell you - or perhaps you'ld prefer some waterfront land in Florida. The LDS owner that trained our class took a vacation instead of doing our OW checkout and had another instructor do the OW checkouts. The procedures that the other instructor made us follow for the OOA was completely different than what we had been taught. These were very good friends from the same certifying agency. Standard OOA procedure - bushwah. Vaguely the same, perhaps - standard, no way.

 

[DaleC]

So basically, I'm discussing not donating a back mounted pony reg with Mark and you jump in to vehemently disagree with me, have a tit for tat for three days, and then say you do donate the pony which you have slung in the expected position and brightly marked... got it.

As for making assumptions, I asked you to clarify your position several times yet you took this long to do so. What can I say.

Are most mainsteam divers trained according to a standardized format? Show me the agency (UTD/GUE aside) that does not teach "buddies share air, donate octo from the triangle". Or for that matter, show me one recreational agency that teaches withholding available air resources to a buddy in an emergency, which was the point that started the debate with Mark. When someone suggests they will do that, it is not untoward that someone might oppose the POV. All you did was muddy the water by alluding that you supported Marks position.

 

[T.C.]

Which, if the OOA diver panics and makes an uncontrolled ascent could very well endanger my safety if tied together by a hose.

I want that OOA diver in close. I want the close enough to punch in the face if they do something stupid.
Yes, I am serious. This is why I don't want to give them my pony as first choice of air, or why I don't want a 50 foot hose on my primary.

I want to be able to thread my left arm into their BC, control their inflator, and hit them for being stupid. If you give them a pony, it just means they may endup being stupid where you can't help them- plus, that's you main reserve of gas. If you give it away, what'll you do if you have a problem on the ascent?

 

[kwinter]

AFAIK some agencies still teach donating the octo or pony reg from the "triangle," often by lifting the arm and covering the mouth so that the octo reg is clearly the one that's available. Other agencies teach that you always donate the one from your mouth because that's the one an OOG diver is most likely to grab and also because you know it is working.

I hope that eventually it will be standardized. It is great in theory to think that donating the octo is fine, but that ignores the natural tendency for the OOG diver to grab the one from your mouth, or situations where there might be no octo reg in the triangle (octo/inflator) or more than one (both octo and pony, or deco reg, etc).

Unless and until it becomes standardized, conversations like this will go on and on.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[T.C.]

Unless and until it becomes standardized, conversations like this will go on and on.

You can't make a standard in an unregulated market. Look at the huge variety of divers, dive gear and dive styles. You'd have better luck trying to make all Americans wear the same clothes...or agree on a political issue.

I can think of only a few pieces of gear that may be called "standard". Tank. Regulators (1st and one 2nd). Mask. Maybe fins- I'm sure there's a group out there that doesn't use them.

Everything else is open for interpretation.

 

[PfcAJ]

I want the close enough to punch in the face if they do something stupid.
Yes, I am serious.

That'll make the situation better.