Quarry Rangers! Divemasters?

[Kirkandtiger]

I probably only have about 150 dives in the ocean. Most of those when I was a brand new diver in the warm water of Bahamas, Thailand, Egypt, Jordan, and Indonesia. Sure, sometimes you see some pretty fish. Maybe a shipwreck which is totally fallen apart and covered with coral and other stuff. I spent much of the winter down in North Florida cave diving. Someone recently asked me which coast I was diving off. My response was, ahh, never made it over to the coast, though got close a couple times. I had the opportunity to dive the Oriskany, yet I passed (the choice was the caves in the Mill Pond, or the Big O - wasn't a hard choice to pick the caves). I spend most of my time diving in caves, cold water quarries (when your job is in Minneapolis, your options are limited), and the shipwrecks in Lake Superior. What is nice is I never have to rinse my gear. - Kirk

 

[robway034]

Maybe it's a location thing, but to get Divemaster in Ga, I have to have 100 dives as well as OW,AOW, and Rescue. And I had to have 5 specialties to get my Rescue diver

What certification body is this, since that's what really matters not which state or country for that matter? It certianly isnt a PADI requirement.

 

[robway034]

I probably only have about 150 dives in the ocean. Most of those when I was a brand new diver in the warm water of Bahamas, Thailand, Egypt, Jordan, and Indonesia. - Kirk

Okay.., now your just showing off! LOL...."only 150"!?!??!? come on dude, that's a crap load of dives and look at the locations!

 

[DivingCRNA]

You can die in the mine that I dive. It is nearly 200 feet deep and has caves and caverns. The temp is 47ish below the thermocline. There has been more than one "incident" out there.

I am not blaming the site or the owner. I am saying cold, deep, dark water can be really dangerous and you need to know what you are doing in it.

The ocean is just dangerous in different ways.

Only true if you don't consider quarry diving "real" diving. Can you die in a quarry from a diving related problem? yes. Can you die in a simulator from a flying related problem (like, crashing, running out of gas, fire from an engine, or in the recent case, a bolt piercing a fuel tank in a wing)? Nope. (you can die ina simulator, but only if you got mugged or something.) Therefore, a simulator is not flying. Since quarry diving is diving, I think the other suggested analogy, of a pilot having experience only in, say, a flight from Gainesville to Atlanta and back, is more reasonable.


And that pilot understands the basics of flying, and if they flew over mountain ranges or long stretches of water, would probably do ok, but not neceessarily. For example, many of the other pilots in my dad's corportation (he owns a Piper Warrior II with about 5 other guys and they all rent it from the corportation, so he can own a plane without being super rich. It's from the 70's, I believe, not new by any means) cannot function as well as my dad can. He'll go flying with them, and they don't get flight plans organized right and misplace maps and charts of taxiways so when things get tough and they are trying to shoot an ILS with foggles on, they are much more at risk of crashing or hurting themselves for making silly errors that they wouldn't make in a VFR environment. So if they always fly VFR, and suddnely are flying IFR, even if they have an IFR rating and have a few IFR flights and landings under their belts, they aren't as safe.

So the DM here might be like that, he's got his "IFR" training but hasn't done that many IFR flights.

But, that analogy could fall apart. Maybe his quarry has bad conditions, so it's more like he's great at landing but only with a crosswind from one side, and his landing is much worse with a crosswind from the other side. So the DM is used to dealing with low viz, but isn't used to currents at all.

That's where the danger comes in.

Sorry to make such a rambling post, I'm trying to study psychology and do some economics homework too. RJP, you made a good point to counter my good point, and while I think you pointed out a flaw, you didn't correct it perfectly. I think that the other guy corrected it better, and hopefully I have improved on it somewhat too. The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe the DM definitely wasn't as "safe" diving in an unusual environment. Still, I do think he was much safer than someone who'd never dov that environment and the simple fact that he's done ots of diving would prevent him from making a stupid mistake, like running out of air, even if he does make other mistakes (like getting carried away by the current, or peeing in his wetsuit or something horrible like that)

 

[JahJahwarrior]

You can die in the mine that I dive. It is nearly 200 feet deep and has caves and caverns. The temp is 47ish below the thermocline. There has been more than one "incident" out there.

I am not blaming the site or the owner. I am saying cold, deep, dark water can be really dangerous and you need to know what you are doing in it.

The ocean is just dangerous in different ways.

Yes, the ocean can be just as dangerous in different ways. For example, one place I have dived, the max depth was about 12-14 feet, the water was pristinely clear, and there was no way to even enter the spring's cave system, the opening was too small. The ocean can be just as safe, in different ways.

While some fresh water dives are safe, some freshwater dives are extraordinarily dangerous and require top notch training and a top notch diver. While some salt water dives are safe, some saltwater dives are extraordinarily dangerous and require top notch training and a top notch diver.

But, most of the dive sites that the recreational shops here take people to, and most of the dive sites that recreational boats take people to are rather safe (as in, you aren't diving in 47 degree water in pitch blackness in a cave system, or diving in 47 degree water (ok, up north, but not in the caribbean, usually) with a 10 knot current during bull shark mating season with 15 open, bleeding cuts) and "anyone" can dive them, if they are smart and observant. The DM who does mainly quarry diving (didn't the OP say this was the second or third saltware dive, not the first?) was probably just as safe as the people with OW training who mainly dive saltwater.

I think the issue really is, why doesn't DM training require you to be proficient in all types of diving? My answer is, the best DM's for a particular area should be proficient in diving that area's dives. I wouldn't trust a caribbean DM to take me down into DivingCRNA's site, but I might not want to follow DivingCRNA in the caribbean. If I'm in DivingCRNA's mine, I'll follow him. If I'm in the caribbean, I'll follow the DM who has been a DM there for 10 years. My dad taught me how to drive stick, my mom has no clue how to drive stick, so when in a stick car, I listened to my dad. When in the automatic, I listened to mom. Both taught me how to drive, and both knew how to drive, just one knows the intracacies of automatic transmissions and the other of manual transmissions, and once I was trained to drive, I was able to drive either car fairly successfully, even though most of my time had been spent in a stick, I didn't slam on the brakes, trying to shift, in my mom's van.

 

[ClayJar]

[...]and once I was trained to drive, I was able to drive either car fairly successfully, even though most of my time had been spent in a stick, I didn't slam on the brakes, trying to shift, in my mom's van.

Be honest. You didn't slam on the brakes *often*... (As one solidly in the stick category, I can't believe you've missed that pleasure completely.)

Now, to thoroughly tax *this* analogy, if you found yourself in the last available U-Haul truck in town, and you stepped on the brake pedal only to hear a "kaTHUNK" and look down to see it swinging freely back and forth like some exceptionally taunting pendulum (probably with a bad French accent, even), would you rather you were with a mechanical person or a geek of all trades? (Hehe, sorry, had to ask.)

(In case you're wondering, we were moving J. into her new apartment on the last and only available day. I was to be driving, and yes, the brake pedal did completely disconnect from the linkage. Thankfully, "geek of all trades" was a sufficient aptitude, and after jogging back to my car for an old Compaq mouse and a pocket knife, I returned as her nerd in shining armor. I dropped under the dash, bodged it together, and with a reassuring rudimentary explanation (the only missing parts were the bits that hold the ring thingy on the shaft thingy, so I just lashed it with the mouse cable), we were off. The move went off without a hitch, and no, we didn't even get a discount for having the brakes fall apart. (We also agreed that we would never mention any of this to her mom. :biggrin)

 

[DivingCRNA]

Well, I am not a DM. I have 37 ocean dives (135 feet at punta sur is my max ocean depth) and almost twice as many fresh water dives (156 feet at the table rock dam is my max depth). I can see your point.

What I know about ocean diving-keep an eye out for sharks in the bahamas. They are not usually interested in me, but it is good to keep an eye on them. Also, do not F with the huge moray eels and do not touch anything, especially stuff you cannot identify! Situational awareness is important on any dive-FW or SW.

It will be a very long time, if ever, that I show anything but my AOW card on an ocean dive, even after I finish DM. I do think it is unreasonable for a DM to be required to be adapt at all kinds of diving conditions. You would not have carribean DMs if they had to get an ice diving cert! Every diver, DM or not, needs to know their limits. You are right about that.

Yes, the ocean can be just as dangerous in different ways. For example, one place I have dived, the max depth was about 12-14 feet, the water was pristinely clear, and there was no way to even enter the spring's cave system, the opening was too small. The ocean can be just as safe, in different ways.

While some fresh water dives are safe, some freshwater dives are extraordinarily dangerous and require top notch training and a top notch diver. While some salt water dives are safe, some saltwater dives are extraordinarily dangerous and require top notch training and a top notch diver.

But, most of the dive sites that the recreational shops here take people to, and most of the dive sites that recreational boats take people to are rather safe (as in, you aren't diving in 47 degree water in pitch blackness in a cave system, or diving in 47 degree water (ok, up north, but not in the caribbean, usually) with a 10 knot current during bull shark mating season with 15 open, bleeding cuts) and "anyone" can dive them, if they are smart and observant. The DM who does mainly quarry diving (didn't the OP say this was the second or third saltware dive, not the first?) was probably just as safe as the people with OW training who mainly dive saltwater.

I think the issue really is, why doesn't DM training require you to be proficient in all types of diving? My answer is, the best DM's for a particular area should be proficient in diving that area's dives. I wouldn't trust a caribbean DM to take me down into DivingCRNA's site, but I might not want to follow DivingCRNA in the caribbean. If I'm in DivingCRNA's mine, I'll follow him. If I'm in the caribbean, I'll follow the DM who has been a DM there for 10 years. My dad taught me how to drive stick, my mom has no clue how to drive stick, so when in a stick car, I listened to my dad. When in the automatic, I listened to mom. Both taught me how to drive, and both knew how to drive, just one knows the intracacies of automatic transmissions and the other of manual transmissions, and once I was trained to drive, I was able to drive either car fairly successfully, even though most of my time had been spent in a stick, I didn't slam on the brakes, trying to shift, in my mom's van.

 

[robway034]

I figured this was topic that would get a lot of interesting response! Before writing it, I mulled over a lot of the different arguements/idea's/points of view that many of you have offered also there many, I never considered!
Anyway, when it comes to conditions like Ice Diving, Caves and mixed gas; I think that these are highly specialized types of diving and I don't know that they really fit into the scope of what anyone would expect of a DM anywhere outside of the tech diving world.
So, I will kind of "add" something else: What I was illuding to, at the begining, was the idea that someone could go from OW to DM and only have been diving in thier local quarry for their entire career. Agian, this is not about individual dive skills its about whether or not one would expect a DM to have (as a prerequisite, maybe?) multiple dive experiences....shore, quarry, boat, FW/SW, night, Deep, wreck.... ya know, the kind of dives one might reasonably expect within the "rec-divers" normal arena. I must admit that I reject the idea of a "specialized DM" meaning a quarry DM or an Ocean DM or...etc.etc, A DM, is a DM, is a DM! I mean, despite what appearances may seem... the quarry guy/gal meets the same standards as the one with all ocean dives..etc

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Clayjar--I've actually never slammed on the brakes trying to shift. I HAVE kicked the car very hard where the clutch should be. Also, my truck has a pull latch thingy for the parking brake exactly where the van has the hood latch. I have popped the hood twice taking off the parking brake in her van.

Robway-- I think it is fairly reasonable to go from OW to DM without much other diving experience than your local quarry. Well, I say fairly reasonable becuase if there are other options open to dive, you should dive them. But if an ocean isn't close (within a few hours) then I don't see why we should require them to dive there to get a DM cert. Should my dad not have his IFR rating (allows him to fly in conditions where he cannot get certain visual cues, "instrument flight rating," he's flying by numbers) because he';s never flown over the ocean or mountain ranges? I do think it would be ridiculousy and perhaps extremely unsafe to hire someone to DM in an envireonment they were unsuited for, it'd be like hiring me to deliver important documents in a city I've never lived in before, I don't know the roads so while I can drive just fine, the documents would never get where they were going. But I think it would be perfectly reasonable for me to have a CDL, without having driven in every city.

So my argument is more like, perhaps we should have hiring laws that say a DM must have so many dives under his or her belt in the environment they are diving in efore they are allowed to DM there? That I could agree with, but it would never work, people would find loopholes. Shop owners would signoff saying the person has dived the site before, so now they can DM it, even if they haven't. Or, DM's would lie and say they had dove there before so they cuold get the job. So I agree with you that a DM needs to have experience diving somewhere before they can really protect other people diving there, but I disagree that a DM needs to have lots of dives in other environments in order to get the certification at all.

And you reject the idea of a "specialised DM." Do you mean you reject the idea that a DM could have a "specialty" or the idea that a DM should have a "specialty?"

As per "standards," they all met the same standards on the test. A DM is a DM is a DM, but a quarry diver is not an ocean diver. (they can be, but are not necessarily. One does not necessarily imply the other)

I think we al pretty much agree, just we don't agree exactly. I agree that a DM is worth more to me, in terms of safety, if he has experience at a certain location that we ar ediving, and becuase safety is priority number 3 (cheap and sturdy being 1 and 2 ) I believe that DM's should have experience in the place they are DM'ing. But Ithink they can have a DM cert without that experience.















The real question is, will a quarry diver yell "help!" or "Pizza!" when someone has a problem diving in the ocean?

 

[ClayJar]

The real question is, will a quarry diver yell "help!" or "Pizza!" when someone has a problem diving in the ocean?

I don't believe in yelling "help" in drills, but seeing as we're divers, *pizza* doesn't really fit well, either. Maybe, instead of pizza, we could yell some sort of flat fish.

When you hear someone yelling, you'll just have to listen to know whether it's a real emergency or whether they're just yelling for the halibut.