PSD Teams and OSHA, NFPA compliance

[stimpy4242]

Thanks for further clarification...I think the point that you wrote that is confusing is when you said:
"OSHA exempts public safety dive teams when they are conducting public safety functions PERIOD"

According to what you just posted, OSHA doesn't exempt them, OSHA doesn't even apply to them. That is what I think was confusing, because in your last post to me you then say this:
"The OSHA standard is for COMMERCIAL DIVING, not public safety diving."

That is why it was confusing.

 

[muddiver]

Read the boring stuff at the beganing of CFR1910 and you will find that it clearly states PSD is exempt from OSHA requirements.

It is the same for military divers, scientific divers and recreational diving instructors.

 

[BladesRobinson]

... And does anyone else find it funny when a company advertises that their PSD training program meets the OSHA standard???

For years I have tried hard to explain why this statement is misleading.

AND ... (I will also point out) that "meets the NFPA standard" is just as false as the OSHA claim since "compliance" would require rope rescue training and dozens of other skill sets not found in most dive training programs.

 

[cerich]

however it is a VERY important statement that a govt or under govt control. There are some non govt "PSD" teams out there that volunteer or even get contracted by the family of missing persons,. They would not be exempted under OSHA.

 

[stimpy4242]

AND ... (I will also point out) that "meets the NFPA standard" is just as false as the OSHA claim since "compliance" would require rope rescue training and dozens of other skill sets not found in most dive training programs.

I am going to have to disagree with this statement, nowhere in NFPA 1670 9.1 does it state that divers are required to have knowledge of rope systems such as setting mechanical advantage. It does discuss it as part of swift water operations but those sections are not included when it references dive. It skips those parts of 9.1.

I would say it is certainly possible for someone to advertise meets NFPA standards.

 

[BladesRobinson]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]To understand the NFPA 1670 document in it's entirety, one cannot skip to the "dive" section, read that section, and believe they have complete knowledge of the document.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]A point of fact is that in order to be NFPA compliant, only the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) can determine if a team member is compliant, not a dive shop or SCUBA instructor. Section 2 covers this and is quoted below.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]2-1.1 [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The AHJ shall establish levels of operational capability needed to conduct operations at technical rescue incidents safely and effectively based on hazard analysis, risk assessment, training level of personnel, and availability of internal and external resources.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]2-1.5 [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Medical care shall be provided for victims of rescue operations and shall be, as a minimum, at the basic life support (BLS) level. (ARE ANY SCUBA INSTRUCTORS TEACHING BLS AS PART OF THEIR PSD COURSE?)[/FONT]



[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]2-1.7 [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Prior to operating at a technical rescue incident, an organization shall meet the requirements of Chapter 2 of this standard along with one or more of the appropriate requirements of Chapters 3 through 9 for the specific technical rescue incident.[/FONT]



[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]2-5.1.3 [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The AHJ shall ensure that members assigned duties and functions at technical rescue incidents and training exercises meet the pertinent requirements of Sections 6-4 and 6-5 of NFPA 1500, Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]2-5.2.1 [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]At technical rescue training exercises and in actual operations, the incident commander shall assign a safety officer with the specific knowledge and responsibility for the identification, the evaluation, and, when possible, the correction of hazardous conditions and unsafe practices. This assignment shall meet the requirements in Chapter 4 of NFPA 1521, Standard for Fire Department Safety Officer. (DURING PSD TRAINING, DOES THE LOCAL SCUBA INSTRUCTOR MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF NFPA 1521?)[/FONT]


[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]The NFPA document continues on and with regrets Copyright laws and restrictions on the ScubaBoard forum prevent me from posting the entire document and more importantly to me (sorry for being selfish), time prohibits me from researching the 37,501 word document and the other NFPA documents that are listed in order to be fully compliant. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]In order to understand the standard, one must start at the front of the standard in Section 1 (not skip right to Section 7, or Section 9) and reference ALL of the other NFPA documents referenced ... 1006, 1500, 1521, etc).[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]You can bet on this though...[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]If an agency could accurately and truthfully state that their program met the NFPA requirements, that claim would be made by Dive Rescue International since DRI and the IADRS has been involved in the creation of the NFPA documents since November 3, 1998 when drafts were first proposed.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Remember, only the AHJ can determine if a program meets their requirements. As another example, if an agency uses surface supplied air as part of their normal response (as is done fire departments in Fishers, IN, Indianapolis and some other communities) then chances are that a "canned" PSD training program taught by a local dive instructor would not meet the local team's needs, nor would it come close to meeting the NFPA standard. Please know I am not critical of the stores or dive instructors who are providing PSD training, only those who falsely claim that teams will be in compliance if members take their training programs. Those people clearly do not know what they are talking about. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Respectfully,[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Blades Robinson[/FONT]

 

[Thalassamania]

It is clear that PSDs are exempt from Fed OSHA, what I'm questioning is if that exemption also exists for the State OSHAs. It should, of course, but I have been give to understand that it doesn't. It will be interesting to see what CAL OSHA's response to TC's request will be, and if that response takes the form of an "opinion" or actually quotes a regulation.

 

[cerich]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Medical care shall be provided for victims of rescue operations and shall be, as a minimum, at the basic life support (BLS) level. (ARE ANY SCUBA INSTRUCTORS TEACHING BLS AS PART OF THEIR PSD COURSE?)[/FONT]Blades Robinson[/FONT]

how on earth can you read that as requiring scuba instructors to teach BLS as part of a Scuba PSD course? All you need are some people trained to BLS on site and as part of the incident planning and response. For instance having even non diving emt/paramedics officially on site will meet that requirement, which would only even apply for a team wishing to meet NFPA. Which is not binding to all PSD teams anyhow.

Throwing OSHA and NFPA together is a common mistake I see people make, OSHA is a governmental agency with the power of LAW behind it, NFPA is not. While certainly NFPA is a set of best practices it is not authoritative to the degree that OSHA is.

 

[stimpy4242]

Blades the word is compliant...the courses offered are compliant...just like the fire fighter 1 and 2 and fire officer courses and rescue tech courses...they are NFPA compliant...so there is no reason someone can't write that about their dive rescue programs...

As far as the OSHA compliance goes I do agree with you.

 

[tc]

The (fed) OSHA exemption-

The commercial diving operations standard does not apply to diving operations under the following conditions:

1. 29 CFR 1910.401(a)(2)(i). Diving for instructional purposes by persons using only open-circuit, compressed air, self-contained underwater- breathing apparatus (SCUBA) within the no-decompression limits.

NOTE: OSHA standards do not apply to individuals engaged in recreation or sport diving (generally SCUBA) that is not related to employment.

2. 29 CFR 1910.401(a)(2)(ii). Diving solely for search, rescue, or related public-safety purposes by or under the control of a government agency.

NOTE: Diving contractors who perform such emergency service not under the control of a government agency, but as an independent contractor for private purposes, do not fall under this exclusion. However, they may be covered by the provisions concerning application of the standard in an emergency (see 29 CFR 1910.401(b)).

The CalOSHA exemption-

EXCEPTION: This standard does not apply to the following diving operations:

(A) Commercial diving operations under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Coast Guard which includes all commercial diving operations taking place offshore and from all vessels required to have a certificate of inspection issued by the Coast Guard.

(B) Diving operations performed solely for search, rescue, or related public safety purposes under the control of and performed by employees of a state or local governmental agency.

(bold added by me)

While similar there is a difference.

No call back from the OSHA folks yet.