PSA for those doing vacation Guided Boat Dives

[Jlpskydive]

I don't usually chime in on things like this, but I have an opinion on this one, as it seems many others do as well. If I'm down having a good time and all is well and someone comes up to me and my buddy and is emphatically thumbing the dive I'm going up with them. I don't know what is going on, on the surface with someone else on the boat, or the boat itself. If I get to the top and they want to go because their wife or husband is sea sick and REALLY wants to go in, well they owe me a refund, even if I don't get it they will hear about it all the way back and for as long and as loud as I can. BUT what if???? someone was hurt BAD and the boat needed to leave NOW, or the weather had just had a violent unexpected shift we we all needed to get out of doge NOW, or any other potential fatal incident had happened that I was unaware of, I would really hate to be the jack wagon that wouldn't come up and got left at sea, or caused the death or more serious injury to another person. DM thumbs the dive.... GET TO THE TOP and figure it out there. IF it was a BS call ask for your money back, trash them on the internet, or never go back. But as has been said before in this thread, if the DM thumbs it he probably knows something I don't and I follow him.

PS. I don't have that many SCUBA dives, but I have about 2,000 Skydives and have told many of jumpers they were not getting out of the plane and to sit down and buckle up. They usually thanked me when we landed with the plane.

 

[DTm]

Wow, I really enjoy diving, want to get as much BT as I can, I enjoy diving with buddies. I have had some really good dives with groups. I have met some really good divers and people I enjoyed having conversations with during surface intervals by having an insta-buddy assigned.
I have had some bad as well, the control freak buddy, the buddy who ask your PSI every 5 minutes, the zoom buddy - look "fish" - zoom they go. The good has always out weighted the bad... I cannot imagine looking at my insta-buddy, who maybe an experienced diver or brand new and saying "you’re on your own pal". All that said I am not sure what it has to do with subject.

True - ultimately we as divers have taken on responsibility for ourselves, and sign all sorts of releases to that effect. regardless when we hire a charter with a dive guide/master they also take a responsibility (may just a personal one), for over sight of the entire group on that charter. If they set the parameters of the Dive as a group dive - every up together - the dive is over when it is thumbed... even if they don’t - if the dive master tells me up it time to go up.. If I get recalled by boat I go up.

If I still had plenty of air, expected 1 hr only got 40 minutes and there was not a good reason why the dive got called short - the boat Capitan and DM gets a crap tip. If one at all. Then I am on the phone with the dive OP asking what happened... It happens another day I am going somewhere else.

All of this I am ignoring the thumb makes me ask a couple of question:
What happens if the dive boat leaves you there?
Has there ever been a case where the dive op and crew did everything right and that they could; but other diver’s actions caused a death?

 

[fisheater]

Who are you to decide that it's time for me and my buddy to surface when nothing is wrong?

flots.

And you can tell that "nothing is wrong" how?




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[flots am]

And you can tell that "nothing is wrong" how?

Because neither myself or my buddy is having problems and nobody was banging on the boat or doing whatever the recall signal was.

The DM's desire for a short dive is irrlevant to me. If he wants to go up, that's fine. He's a certified diver and can do what he wants. There is no reason for me to assume that his judgement is any better (or more important) than mine.

flots.

 

[redacted]

Regardless of whether you like or dislike guided dives, once you sign up for one, you have to play by the rules. When the DM signals "dive over, surface now," the dive's over and you surface.

If he called the dive early so that he could meet his friends for cheap beers at the local happy hour, then go off on him on the boat or dock.

However, he may have called the dive early because another diver had medical issues and needed on the boat evaluation and treatment or a quick return to get to EMS.

That's the DM's call.


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That begs the question of when this dive became a mandatory guided dive. If the dive op made this clear as part of the contract before $$$ were paid then the divers failed to uphold their part of the contract. If, as seems to be more typical, the dive op or DM injected the MANDATORY guided dive later in the process (like on the boat ride to the dive site) then I don't see where the divers had any obligation to call their dive just because the DM decided to escort the other pair of divers to the surface.

Mike - What dive op were you DMing with?

 

[Ana]

I didn't think I had anything to add to this thread, but while reading the new posts something clicked...

Earlier it was pointed out that I do not quite get what I read, and that is partially true. When I originally read the post #1 I was so curious about the details and location of the dive, I failed to digest all the information given.

Once again, I'm not saying these 2 people have any justification to ignore the call, much less flash insulting signals to the guide. My point (just like it was on my first reply) is what would make a pair of divers that supposedly agreed to make a guided dive proceed to ignore the guide.

But anyway, re - reading the first post I noticed there were at least 2 guides on this dive.
So on the first dive, it was clear there was no general emergency that truly "required" these 2 people to end their dive. Not because there was no signals from the boat like some were noting on the later posts, but if a second guide is continuing the dive obviously there is no emergency.

Makes me wonder again... during the second dive was the other guide also hanging around, while guide #1 was calling the dive off?

Continuing the wondering mode... these 2 divers may have been more aware of their surroundings and the dive itself, than what it appears at first glance. They were described as "mud-darts" which if I understand correctly is people that hit the water and don't stay in the surface dilly-dallying. They then "proceeded to swim fast to parts unseen" but not so unseen that the guide got to them in a little bit, early enough in the dive to give the guide time to "herd cats".
It is probably just me, but the other divers that are not described in the post, the ones that followed all the rules and are only mentioned to say that one had a NDL issue, are the ones that need some type of public service announcement. Again, it must be me, but I'm picturing a pair that took forever fuzzing with their gear in the surface, a sweet long time to get to the bottom and eventually made it to the "parts unseen"

This is a green forum... things should stay nice here, I'm aware of this. But we should aim for good divers, not obedient cattle. Yes some people require special attention, some even deserve special attention. But just because a diver with a missing leg needs a hand coming back on board doesn't mean that every diver now will be assisted coming on board, weather they need/want or not.

Guides have a very important place in diving, just like DM's and similar. They probably have more contact with divers that instructors, all this kumbaya talk about helping others, and sharing and blah blah blah... how about improving the quality of divers? like Devon Diver mentioned empower the divers you have access to, instead of micromanaging every move they make?
Nah... that takes real work, it implies that a guide has to open the eyes and recognize what diver is capable, which one may need a hand here and there, which one may need a lot of help act accordingly with them. That's not what I see in most charters. I do see and hear the DM's zero in the really bad divers to make themselves superior while they justify the need for them to be in control.

 

[DTm]

In all aspects of our life, there is always going to be individuals that take a responsibility and turn that it an Authority that they do not really have. i.e. to be control freaks.. I am sure that is true of some Scuba instructors and Dive Masters; I have never met them, I am sure one day I will. From everything said here I do not get the impression that this dive guide was/is a control freak.

It is interesting to me how many of the post - one detail of the original post is picked it to death. The one thing I am picking out of the details is not only did this dive guide say this pair were just not good divers but another one did too. Many of us have made a case for not doing buddy or group dives because of bad divers {and control freak DMs}. Maybe bad is too strong maybe it should just be inexperienced. Whether it is right or wrong we have that choice.

But lets put the other shoe on - you're the DM your job is simply to make sure the whole groups has a "safe" and enjoyable dive. You have 4 divers in your group - two have decent skills and want you to guide the; the other two do not have good skills and want to do their own thing..
Lets say you do just let all fend for themselves - they should be able to they are after all certified. Even though you know going in two do not have the skills.
Those two get lost on the first dive – they’re on al80s site is 80 ft down and you have not seen them for 1 hr 30 minutes.
What is the impact of that to everyone on the boat? Are their second dives not all abandoned because now a search has to be done?
Beyond the legal issues, having to file an incident report, the press and all that other BS, how do you feel that two divers were lost on your watch? How does the dive OP feel that a diver they took out is now gone?

Every diver should go into the water being responsible for themselves and should not expect any help from the DM. I think everyone who has responded here has that same mindset no matter what our position is. I am not going to say the DM’s do not have the option to not dive with someone. However they are not in same position we are – If they refused to dive with every bad diver it would be an every other day event. DM’s have a responsibility to the whole groups safety and enjoy not an individual. Whether we dive solo, pseudo solo (wink wink you go your way, I go mine); buddy teams, or groups it does not change that we are still a community of divers that have gone out to a site on the same boat – we need to be respectful of everyone.

 

[Pauly854]

This is slightly off of the original subject, but still somewhat connected. As I mentioned earlier, I recently had my first charter boat experience. On a few of the dives, they imposed a time limit. They never really explained why they were restricting time. But how often does this happen on charters? What would some typical reasons be for a time limit. It was never a factor for me due to my air consumption rate, but I can see where this would be upsetting for some. You sign up for "2 tank dives", not "2 forty minute dives". Those with excellent air consumption were coming up with half a tank, or so...what gives?

 

[Ana]

You sign up for "2 tank dives", not "2 forty minute dives". Those with excellent air consumption were coming up with half a tank, or so...what gives?

Usually what gives is money.

Time is money, if they don't put a time limit, there is a potential for some divers to stay down for several hours. I'm starting to hear of charter with 40 minute limits, that bites. I always considered that less than 1 hour was a rip off, but I have never worked on the recreational side of diving, maybe is justified.

 

[TSandM]

Sometimes it's schedule. Here in the PNW, dives are planned around slack tides, so if someone has an unexpectedly long runtime, it can mean missing the slack for the second dive. Or, if the boat is trying to get in four in a day, and has to get back to the marina during daylight hours, or get the boat back to take out an afternoon group, they may limit dive length.