Project Argonaut, totally new, vintage style DH regulator

[John C. Ratliff]

I see a lot of different types of DSV mouthpieces, so it is hard to determine which type of design would be used in a modern double hose regulator. As you know, I've dived double hose regulators for a long time, but have never tried any of the rebreathers. I dive solo, and rebreather diving really does not look appealing to an older, solo diver. I suppose I could try one this summer in a pool, and if I get the opportunity I may do so. But I won't get into a rebreather unless there is a real reason to spend that much money. I'd rather invest in a state-of-the-art double hose regulator, and dive the double hose regulators I currently own. For anyone who is tempted to go to a rebreather for photography, I'd encourage trying the new double hose regulator first.

The post of the link above to mouthpiece problems with the DSV mouthpiece was an afterthought, as I had completed the thought of my interests. Here is one website I found which discusses different designs (some of which are pretty bazaar).
http://www.therebreathersite.nl/01_Informative/BOV_page/BOV_page.html

Yes, pool harassment was fun. My buddy Bob Means and I simply handed the instructors our masks when they came after us, and went from there. We were the last buddy team out of the pool that day. Lots of good memories from the Navy USS.

John

 

[Luis H]

In that link there are basically only two designs: a three-way ball valve and a closing rotating gate.
Untitled 1

The majority in that thread are the three way style ball valve style that switches the diver from the re-breather loop to a bail out open circuit regulator. You can see the open circuit regulator demand valve either attached to the bottom or the front of the mouthpiece. That is the reason why some are so bulky. The three way ball valve can also be identified by the large rotating knob on the front. This design are actually not called DSV (Dive Surface Valve) they are called BOV (Bail out Valve).

The other design with the rotating internal tube/ gate is more of what I have in mind. I have already designed and built a couple different styles of prototypes using that basic principle. In this design you often see a lever on the front that rotated down (but there are a few exceptions).

I have played and studied many of those designs. Many of them look different, but they are not.

What is very different is the second stage that is attached to the BOV type systems (or built into some of the BOV type). And there is absolutely no need for a BOV in an open circuit double hose.

 

[Luis H]

After all this talk about DSV for double hose regulators, I decided to post some pictures of the Northill Air-Lung DSV. The Norhill was introduced in 1954, but it was gone by the very early 60's.

Using a DSV in a DH is not a new idea.

The DSVs that I designed and built using a straight USD mouthpiece works on a similar principle as the Northill. To close it you rotate the inner section by grabbing at the hose at the edge. The DSV that Nemrod has been using, since our trip to the Bahamas in 2009, is one of the ones that I built using that design.

Some of this pictures might have been from an eBay sale, but I am not sure.


















---------- Post added April 19th, 2014 at 07:05 PM ----------



To get back on topic:

Argonaut backpack/ backplate compatibility




There have always been questions and issues about a DH compatibility with many back packs. Part of my design goal with the new Argonaut case was to make it compatible with as many backpacks as possible.


During my recent Maine-iacs club pool session I had five DH regulator set-ups with different regulators (mostly Argonauts) and several vintage backpacks, plus my backplate.
Link for pictures of the pool session: Vintage Double Hose ? View topic - Maine-iacs dive club pool session


Afterwards I decided to take some pictures of the fit.


Notice that with an AL80 there is plenty of room. With the narrower ST72, the regulator fits with both the thin plastic backpacks and the blow-molded backpack, but there is no room to spare. The best fit , as expected, is with the plate.


The pictures shows the fit, but regulator position also has to be considered. I dove the Argonaut with both blow-molded backpacks and the performance seems fine, but there is no question that the blow-molded backpacks separates the regulator a bit from your back.


From a performance point of view, based on my observations, the VDH backplate is the best. It holds the regulator in the correct place, actually touching your back, and it holds in place better than most other types of backpacks or harness. Other thin backpacks and some of the modern thin synthetic back packs (like the Express Tech) are very close and work very well.


I actually also really like the thin contoured backpack that I am showing. It is just very comfortable to me. That is the Nemrod type with the somewhat flexible plastic, that doesn't break like the US Divers did.


Blow molded backpack









Nemrod style thin backpack









Blow molded backpack









Double Hose back-plate:









AL80 with thin backpack









AL80 with blow molded backpack

 

[Nemrod]

The relevance of the Argonaut to me is that it is a modern evolution (continuing) of a double hose regulator. What should have been had USD/AL not quit in 72 and had Voit or Healthways not gone TU etc. So with the exception of the new VDH Universal Mini-Plate, what gives with all that blow molded stuff and antiquated plates in those pics? How does it fit up with the gear people dive with and can purchase today?

So, when I had an Argonaut at my disposal, I did fit it up with the equipment I had available. I have plenty of new, modern gear. Gear that is typical of todays advanced or "light" tech exploration oriented divers. I have found that the soft plate BCs (Zuma, Equator etc.) fit up just fine. I have found that the Freedom Plate by Eric fits dandy and the excellent VDH Universal Plate fits, of course, great and both would feel completely normal to the average BP/wing diver. Also the soft plates such as the Oxy Travel Plate and Scubapro Travel plate work fine.

I like for my basic kit to be universal, in that I can, with only minor adjustment, switch from twin hose to single hose regulators. My gear configurations are transparent to the regulator piece of it. Since I tend to carry a fairly capable camera rig (note that I do not bestow upon my self the title of "photographer") much of my dive, pre dive, post dive and preparations are focused around and upon THE CAMERA. Such is the life of the diver who carries about $5,000 plus of photo gear, everything else is secondary to THE CAMERA. My gear must work, must be transparent to my dive and require nothing from me so that I can concentrate upon THE CAMERA.

That is my biggest draw to the Argonaut, especially for non vintage photo and exploration divers, the Argonaut is a piece of modern gear that will aid your photography and your underwater explorations and will plug and play with your modern kit.

Unfortunately, due to the laws of nature, two objects and cannot exist in the same place and time without conflict. No twin hose regulator, vintage or modern, will ever play nice with the typical (intended originally for doubles) bent plate used by so many BP/wing divers. In order to fully utilize the many advantages of a twin hose regulator and the modern Argonaut in particular, that piece of kit (bent tech plates) will have to give way in their kit. And off the top, the modern, off the shelf, plates that work are the VDH Universal Plate, Freedom Plate, Oxy and Scubapro and similar soft type plates and many typical "travel" BCs.

N

 

[Luis H]

The relevance of the Argonaut to me is that it is a modern evolution (continuing) of a double hose regulator. What should have been had USD/AL not quit in 72 and had Voit or Healthways not gone TU etc. So with the exception of the new VDH Universal Mini-Plate, what gives with all that blow molded stuff and antiquated plates in those pics? How does it fit up with the gear people dive with and can purchase today?

N

In part, I am just showing what I have. But more important, I wanted to show backpacks without a bladder for the sake of clarity. My intention is to show the volume occupied by the regulator and the volume of some of the hard shell backpacks. The hard shell backpacks are not going to move out of the way.

I have seen a variety of modern BC's (both jacket and back inflate) that still incorporate some form of blow molded type of backpack in them. The plastic back packs that I am showing are kind of representative (roughly) of the insert in some of the modern recreational diving type of BC's.

If you recall, I used to use a modified Cayman BC that worked very well with my Phoenix. It has a blow molded backpack. I still have that BC and could have taken pictures with it, but the bladder is flexible and it would have just made the picture a bit confusing.


I totally agree with your comments, in particular about the modern style of bent backplate.

I also agree that the semi-rigid backplates (like the Express tech and the two that you mentioned) work just fine. I used an Express Tech for a while and it did work fine with the Phoenix, but I like my plate a lot better. I still have the Express tech and could have taken pictures with it, but I didn't see much value at doing that. It is just a semi-flexible plate.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I always thought my plate was pretty slick using it with a double hose but I didn't get a lot of takers in the vintage crowd, especially over at VDH.
There were a few here who got one for using with a Pheonix. I had to set those up with a special tall rail to allow for the additional stick out of the reg. I never heard back from any of them so I have no idea if they worked or not.
I guess the Freedom Plate wasn't "Vintage" enough for the rest of the crowd, but then I always wondered, if they were so pure then what about the Pheonix?
So now there is a brand new modern day double hose regulator (which I think is great! BTW), so does that mean that the Freedom Plate is OK now too since it's modern but retro in design?
Looking at the pictures It should work just as good (or better) than one of the plastic packs.

 

[Luis H]

Hi Eric,

Everybody that I know that has your plate likes it (see Nemrod post above).

I have no explanation of why it didn't become more popular. IMO, it resembles the contour plates of the past (like the thin plastic that I show above), which is very vintage.

The contoured style plates were also made out of thin aluminum, sold by Sportways and Dacor. So again I personally think that your plate has a vintage style.

To me that contour style of plates are very comfortable. I considered buying one of your pates, but (as far as I remember) you only offered the aluminum version for a short time. I like to travel to warm dive places, therefore I would not consider a stainless steel plate due to its weight.

If you ever offer a light weight plate again, I will consider it. I am extremely happy with my simple flat plate (with the specific cutout for any double hose), but I am always open to try other gear.

I will try to send you a PM tonight.
Thanks

 

[Tug]

Eric,

I have a freedom plate (first version) and I can take a few pictures of it with a double hose reg next week if you like.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Hi Eric,

Everybody that I know that has your plate likes it (see Nemrod post above).

I have no explanation of why it didn't become more popular. IMO, it resembles the contour plates of the past (like the thin plastic that I show above), which is very vintage.

The contoured style plates were also made out of thin aluminum, sold by Sportways and Dacor. So again I personally think that your plate has a vintage style.

To me that contour style of plates are very comfortable. I considered buying one of your pates, but (as far as I remember) you only offered the aluminum version for a short time. I like to travel to warm dive places, therefore I would not consider a stainless steel plate due to its weight.

If you ever offer a light weight plate again, I will consider it. I am extremely happy with my simple flat plate (with the specific cutout for any double hose), but I am always open to try other gear.

I will try to send you a PM tonight.
Thanks

I don't want to hijack your thread.
However I do want one of those regs when they become a regular production item, and I get some extra cash.

All I can say is, try and get them into the mainstream market somehow. Just selling them to a bunch of VDH good old boys and a few SB'ers is fine, but I have a pretty good idea that in order to make it worth it and cover production costs you will need to sell a lot of these, so that means it's going to have to have world wide appeal to a very large cross section of divers.
One place that comes to mind would be photographers. It seems like there are more photography nuts out there than anything else.
I know from personal experience that using a double hose allows you to get much closer to sea life to view it or take a picture.
I think your product is the best of both worlds, it's kind of like a CCR with the breathing loop and no bubbles in your face, but costs are relative to open circuit and no complicated protocols to follow and a very safe unit to use.

One problem with plates is, I believe, that there is a saturation point that has been reached by the people who seek them out and use them. My plate was a very niche market and there is a lot of politics involved with plates and plate users.
With the new double hose, I think it is so new to most people that the territory is wide open.
Most modern day divers, believe it or not, probably don't even know what double is and have never seen one. They're too young to know about the Sea Hunt era and most instructors and shops never mention them or are clueless themselves.
This makes for a fresh, unadulterated, untapped market for you. This could be a brand new concept to many people.

Think big on this one.
Have you looked it any substantial backing?

 

[danvolker]

I am seriously thinking of the Argonaut when available, with the Freedome plate, and NO Wing/bc....for summer spring , summer and fall on recreational dives, when I can use just a skin or a skin with Thermalution heated shirt.
Way slicker, quiet for shooting video, and I like minimal.....